Formal Letter to SE about RMT situation.

SE doesn't seem to give a rats about this. People who buy gil and gil sellers aren't getting punished.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Balmung gets a lot less spam since the server is full to bursting. Though that changed recently, from what I hear.

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The spam in Balmung has gotten worse.
I've gotten 4 tells today...but wait!
This is me saying this but I have not had ANY tells in MONTHS. I can only imagine
the people in lower population servers as Balmung is quite tough to get in...
My heart goes out for those other people in those servers. It's getting out of hand.

They need to find the peoples who are buying the Gil and ban them too.

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Originally Posted by Mancub22

SE doesn't seem to give a rats about this. People who buy gil and gil sellers aren't getting punished.

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Actually a few people on my server told me a few known player got banned for buying gils.

The constant spam of advertising (even though it's not from SE) makes it FEEL like a Free to Play MMO. It's downright insulting that we have to deal with it. I feel like I'm playing LOTRO all over again, except in LOTRO I don't get harassed by random people.

Lol. So glad I don't have to put up with this on Moogle Server. I do hope they increase the blacklist cap though.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Regardless, NA gamers are pathetic. Stop buying gil and if I find out you are buying gil I will have you mass reported with evidence.

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The thing that is extremely odd to me is that at least on my World no one I know buys from the gil spammers, they absolutely hate them! You'd be able to tell if someone was suddenly rich and able to buy anything they wanted, and yet have all 0 crafting and not be doing anything to make gil.

I just don't understand it... It really doesn't even seem like a lot of people buy gil. Also, not sure why this has so many likes... Your stereotype of NA gamers is pretty insulting. The stereotypes EU and the UK has about NA is insulting in general though... I'm apparently a fat slob, who is lazy, cheap, not very intelligent, and willing to pay for every easy option available in life.

In reality though, I work my butt off in a program to earn money for college since 6 months of bothering the crap out of places netted me no job because the job market is honestly that horrible over here, so I figured it was time to try college. I am excited to live in a 1-room apartment that to most would seem like a hovel, am actually underweight, too poor to afford the easy options in life (I could afford to buy gil, but what the hell would I do once I got everything I'd ever wanted without even earning it? It certainly wouldn't leave a very satisfying feeling, not like the one I'd get by actually earning everything I want), and I believe I'm at least semi-intelligent.

No, my point was not tell my life story (you can grab that at a store coming near you soon!), but to show you that you have no clue what it is like to live in the NA, so probably shouldn't stereotype a whole population based on the region they live on.

The biggest issues actually lies in the buyers, where people buy, people will sell, its how business works.
If we are getting so many sellers in this state, it means a lot of people are buying.
The ideal solution would actually be, how can SE find a way to stop people buying gil.

Gonna get flamed for this but one of the most immediate ways is to find a way to stem gil buying and put real money into another direction, if people are willing to buy gil, then why not have a more robust cash shop items, like dyes that can actually be traded for example.
If people are gonna buy gil, it might as well get it from another player that has bought an item from the cash shop, heck the worst you will get is a PF advertisement or a shout here and there, it will reduce tell annoyances and massive spam.
Might even make the official server forum more busy.

Though the downfall to this, it can create some buy to win, in terms of buying cash shop items to fund towards say a personal house, however this is the only real pay to win scenario I can think of, end game items are locked through tomes and drops for the most part.
But I rather see SE getting money then a gil trader through illicit means, WOW is allowing players to trade game time through game gold in the hopes to reduce gold sellers RMT.

TLDR, something needs to be done to the buyers in order to reduce tells, less business for sellers, less reason to sell in that market.

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Originally Posted by TheFolant

Lol, quitting because RMT.

Da's pretty funny.

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I don't think people would really quit for that reason. However, it's tiring. I personally log in everyday, try to PF something and getting hammered with gil spams, like 5 different tells every 2 minutes. When I'm alt tabbed, it's like a gambling game! Should I check my FFXIV window in case someone actually responded to my PF recruit, or should I just ignore it because there's a 99% chance it's just another spammer, over and over again every minute? I end up getting tired of it and just log out.

Checked my /tell tab after being on for 2 hours. Had 50 /tells, all RMT. Fun times. Luckily I've put the /tells into its own tab and turned the chime off. I don't really check it anymore unless I want to see how ridiculous the spam is.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

I don't think people would really quit for that reason. However, it's tiring.

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Depends. With the plethora of gaming options available out there, some may wonder why they put up such ludicrous spam when nothing is being done to fix it. The main thing I'm worried about is new players who will be driven away. The saying first impressions are everything comes to mind. If someone new begins playing and this is the first thing they see, I can very well see that some may not want to continue on, especially when, again, there are a ton of games out there one can play.

FWIW, my two gil doesn't blame SE all that much currently. This is because I think they have a lot more pressing matters to address. I am not sure how terrible it was prior to 2.1 but it didn't really become a big deal until probably 6 months ago for me on Ultros. Given the fact that they are still pushing content with 2.55 coming out out next week, and still trying to polish things with Heavensward I am sure they are already too stretched to handle much more of anything else. I would much rather my content be stable than deal with a slightly /busy text entry every now and again. I agree with everyone that this is an out of hand issue that needs to be addressed but I also see that I would give them a little bit more time to deal with it as well. Not to mention as apart of their modding feature *hopefully* releasing soon, this may be an issue that the player base can take care of on their own soon enough. I wish that a dev would respond to say what is going on with this, but I do not blame them for silence either for the moment.

I agree RMTing is getting really crazy. Im finally seeing what so many are complaining about on the other servers, its happening on Exodus as well.

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Originally Posted by Zephanoa

I think they have a lot more pressing matters to address.

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They had well over a year now to give us a proper anti-RMT status. Busy is a joke. Blocks invites, trade requests, can't even get into Final Coil with Busy on, apparently. It shouldn't take them this long to give us a status that restricts /tells so only people in your linkshells, FC and your friend list can whisper you. Auto-block friend requests in this status and you're good to go, total freedom from RMT without being crippled.

This is the worst I've seen in any MMO I've played. Sure there is always gold sellers ( unfortunately), but the fact that they PM you as much as they do is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Blissa

I 100% agree all that RMT spam is going to cripple the game for new players. If you leave tells on and some one sends you a genuine tell, your going to have to scroll up to read it because of the 3 or 4 RMT spam tells you received right after the tell.

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This has caused so much frustration & misunderstanding. I'll have people send me tells, but I miss them completely due to RMT spam & they think I am ignoring them & they get upset as a result. The RMT is this game is by far the worst in any MMO I have played bar none.

They just need constant support members monitoring /tells and taking immediate action against RMT offenders. If the RMT accounts are being terminated as soon as they engage in this form of spam, it will become cost ineffective for the RMT companies, and force them to use methods of advertising less annoying to the general public. The cheapest product activation codes out there are about $15. If every round of spam from an RMT leads to an immediate ban at a $15 loss for the RMT company, they WILL stop being so relentless. Currently, these spamming accounts are being banned on something like a one-month interval, which allows the $15 account to get a lot of mileage before termination.

Every MMO has RMT, you can't completely shut those companies out of exploiting a popular game. But you CAN force them to operate in the shadows and create a better environment for the regular players.

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Originally Posted by Darlan_Ashwood

This is the worst I've seen in any MMO I've played. Sure there is always gold sellers ( unfortunately), but the fact that they PM you as much as they do is ridiculous.

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MMOs with F2P have more.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Except that that reason for them not playing beyond the trial period is rarely ever true. Most people don't play beyond the trial period because 1.) They don't wanna pay 2.) Not enough entertainment in the time allotted or 3. Just wanted to try it out but never wanted to really play it. There's also all the restrictions that make the game REAL fun to play as a trial member.

I agree with TheFolant, people quitting cause of RMT is funny. People not wanting to subscribe to a game because of RMT...also equally funny.

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I can't imagine any new MMO player would enjoy the barrage of RMT spam - maybe it doesn't bother you, but it certainly annoys many people. It certainly distracts and detracts from the game experience. Who wants to be interrupted constantly by spam?

I have to be honest....

The fact that this rampant spamming is so absent from EU and JP servers to the point they think we are grossly exaggerating is rather upsetting. Not that they find our complaints ridiculous, because they really can't envision it being as bad as it is, but also that it's made this giant rift between us players and sends a terrible message to them.

It's gone so far as that after making an alt on a smaller server, I had gotten 7 tells before I was even finished watching the opening cinematic. I wasn't even in the world were other players could click me, and the bots were already tracking me and hitting me with tells. This doesn't mention the times I've spotted armies of bots teleporting across the map and killing mobs while underground and AFK.

Yes, people will buy gil. Yes, people will get hacked and have their accounts abused. The fact is, even if there is one player per 1000 that buys gil on NA servers, their cheating should under no circumstance result in so severely hampering the other 999 player's chances to enjoy the game.

Right now, these companies have no problems getting their bots in to farm and spam. There needs to be something done deep in the framework of the game that will make it harder on these RMT! I keep hoping against hope that 3.0 will bring some sort of core upgrade and modification that will break these bots!

PLEASE give us an option to Right Click > Report for spammers.

Upon reaching a report threshold, a ticket is generated for GMs to review and subsequently act.

Upon reaching a very high threshold -- as in, 50+, or something around the average number of people in a single section of a major city at any given time, instant account suspension.

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. SQUARE-ENIX, YOU MUST ACT.

Sometimes i just want to copy their RMT cr*p and paste spam them back with their own vomit. I wonder i'll get myself banned that way :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Vurtney

Sometimes i just want to copy their RMT cr*p and paste spam them back with their own vomit. I wonder i'll get myself banned that way :rolleyes:

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It'd be pointless, it's run by bots. Half the time they're not even there. But I share in that desire. I've wished I could spam their telephone, or spam them in some other way, every minute like they spam me, so they could see how annoying it is.

People keep saying ban the buyers.. but it won't work as well as you think.

SE tried taking action on buyers shortly after launch by removing gil from their accounts. According to them they essentially removed a digit from their gil, if they had 10 mil they went down to 1 mil. The sheer outcry about it on the forums was unreal, tons of people came here claiming they got their gil legitimately and the overall mood was anger against SE for doing this. I can pretty much guarantee that it will be the same situation if they ban those people as opposed to removing the gil so I can't really blame them for not banning buyers (I don't think any mmo does that to be honest).

What really needs to happen is more intelligent chat filters, currently the chat filter that's in place is fooled by only changing a few letters each time. That's why you typically see random strings of changing letters on the end of their tells.

A lot of other games with addon support have user made spam filters that work surprisingly well so I'm personally hoping that addon support comes sooner than later and they let the community handle this situation on their own. I don't think SE has a lot of options that wouldn't inhibit legit players quality of life in some way. What works for one user might not be good for another user.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

People keep saying ban the buyers.. but it won't work as well as you think.

SE tried taking action on buyers shortly after launch by removing gil from their accounts. According to them they essentially removed a digit from their gil, if they had 10 mil they went down to 1 mil. The sheer outcry about it on the forums was unreal, tons of people came here claiming they got their gil legitimately and the overall mood was anger against SE for doing this. I can pretty much guarantee that it will be the same situation if they ban those people as opposed to removing the gil so I can't really blame them for not banning buyers (I don't think any mmo does that to be honest).

What really needs to happen is more intelligent chat filters, currently the chat filter that's in place is fooled by only changing a few letters each time. That's why you typically see random strings of changing letters on the end of their tells.

A lot of other games with addon support have user made spam filters that work surprisingly well so I'm personally hoping that addon support comes sooner than later and they let the community handle this situation on their own. I don't think SE has a lot of options that wouldn't inhibit legit players quality of life in some way. What works for one user might not be good for another user.

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Seems like you get it. Killing the supply (and their advertisers) removes the temptation. If one can't get millions of gil for a few $, spending a little time grinding it out doesn't seem as intimidating. And they might actually try, say, crafting, and find out it isn't as intimidating as it seems. As for that controversy early in the game's life... that's because they didn't actually target gil buyers. They targeted everyone over a certain amount of currency. There's a rather notorious case on the FFXIV reddit, where they eventually admitted to him they didn't have the resources to investigate each case individually.

Such spam filters exist for FFXIV, but as they're not official we can't talk about them here on the official forums. It would be great to get official addon support.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

People keep saying ban the buyers.. but it won't work as well as you think.

SE tried taking action on buyers shortly after launch by removing gil from their accounts. According to them they essentially removed a digit from their gil, if they had 10 mil they went down to 1 mil. The sheer outcry about it on the forums was unreal, tons of people came here claiming they got their gil legitimately and the overall mood was anger against SE for doing this. I can pretty much guarantee that it will be the same situation if they ban those people as opposed to removing the gil so I can't really blame them for not banning buyers (I don't think any mmo does that to be honest).

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But still you would think SE is able to track on how the person got the gil. I say that if you earn 10m overnight, you're buying it.

But RMT problem doesn't go away itself just blocking them. We do need some punishment to buyers aswell! They're just as bad.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

SE tried taking action on buyers shortly after launch by removing gil from their accounts. According to them they essentially removed a digit from their gil, if they had 10 mil they went down to 1 mil. The sheer outcry about it on the forums was unreal, tons of people came here claiming they got their gil legitimately and the overall mood was anger against SE for doing this. I can pretty much guarantee that it will be the same situation if they ban those people as opposed to removing the gil so I can't really blame them for not banning buyers (I don't think any mmo does that to be honest).

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^ This. No matter what solution SE comes up with, i'm positive that it will find some way to deeply offend a corner of the community, who would have some nuanced privilege of theirs stripped away. Stuff like this always does without fail in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

What really needs to happen is more intelligent chat filters, currently the chat filter that's in place is fooled by only changing a few letters each time. That's why you typically see random strings of changing letters on the end of their tells.

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This is what needs to happen, but again, something that isn't as easy as it sounds. Teaching a computer to identify specific intent through text isn't necessarily easy, and again, it would likely result in some restrictions on chat macros or whatever, and people would complain. Not to mention RMTers would undoubtedly find a way around it, and we're back to square one, except now the innocents are suffering for it.

But then again, i can't say i'd miss the large text-image macros people come up with.

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Originally Posted by Naliee

But still you would think SE is able to track on how the person got the gil. I say that if you earn 10m overnight, you're buying it.

But RMT problem doesn't go away itself just blocking them. We do need some punishment to buyers aswell! They're just as bad.

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I believe SE has such measures in place. Sudden spikes in gil will likely get their attention. They won't tell us about these measures, however, because well...
http://puu.sh/gRSnn/d6cf820c52.png

I wouldn't say buyers are just as bad precisely. It's more like Satan vs Sinners. One is beyond redemption, the others are not. But it looks like SE is temp banning them (going off the lodestone posts) which seems appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Naliee

But still you would think SE is able to track on how the person got the gil. I say that if you earn 10m overnight, you're buying it.

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Except that that's not the truth in the slightest? I have friends who have alts. I -and numerous friends- have been asked to trade alts to help them pass items and gil over from the main for as long as I've been playing. It's been as low as 200k and a Valentione cake and as high as 4 mil to get their Supra. My husband and I are 4 star crafters and have decently sized gil accounts but even so, we trade to each other often whenever we need something quickly and need to pool our gil.

Our FC house? A combined effort that saw 10 mil from one person and 5 mil from another and 2 mil from another, all hitting me.
According to your post, because I have large amounts of gil hitting me in that situation, I buy gil.
I don't buy gil though. I just experience sums of gil passing through my hands.

Crafters who make commissions for full sets of armor and robes have large sums of gil passing through their hands. Guess what? According to your post, they also buy gil.

Let's say this: Should an account that's used to seeing 200k receive gil from their friend be subject to such a rule? 200k isn't a lot but when they wanted Supra and knew their other friend had it and asked for it, BOOM a large amount of gil just transferred into their hands and OMG THEY ARE BUYING GIL!!

The system that you're saying (which is just you assuming that people can't gil jump without it being suspicious) would kill any trade of gil, even between friends or customers of their favorite crafter.

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Originally Posted by Naliee

But still you would think SE is able to track on how the person got the gil. I say that if you earn 10m overnight, you're buying it.

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What constitutes a flag? A large gil trade? Someone receiving a whisper and then getting a large gil trade? How do you prove they bought the gil? Or don't have rich caster friends? Or that one player wasn't just really generous? Or it's for any plenty of reasons other than illegal RMT?

As for RMT whispers....even if they're able to track all the whispers and identify them as bots, they have to not only have a system for generating this flag (which is priority #1 for RMTers to circumvent), but also try to stop players from receiving these tells, which again requires them to have some system that identifies the tells as RMT-related, and even then you have to implement this system in a way where it itself doesn't become annoying to the player.

May not be rocket science, but it's not as easy as people think it is, obviously, seeing as every MMO has to deal with it.

What we should do is ask nothing but questions about RMT for the next Questions for the producer thing. That way if SE doesn't answer any of the RMT questions, we know they either don't care, or censor the event and come up with their own questions to answer while making us believe they will answer ours, or they just don't care about the non-JP community at all. That let's them know it's more important than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

What we should do is ask nothing but questions about RMT for the next Questions for the producer thing. That way if SE doesn't answer any of the RMT questions, we know they either don't care, or censor the event and come up with their own questions to answer while making us believe they will answer ours, or they just don't care about the non-JP community at all. That let's them know it's more important than anything else.

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Except that would become counterproductive. If everyone here ganged up on the question section of the live letter and demanded answers for the RMT situation, the most known response to it will be silence because that would be escalating a situation even more out of control. The worst case scenario would be that they see it as destructive, angry out lashing and decide that they don't want our questions over in the NA section anymore.

I'm 100% sure that there were more questions asked in the last live letter than just about the packaging of the expansion...but lo and behold, nothing but the details of the packaging of the expansion.

I'm sure the next live letter question selection will include even MORE things than the expansion but we'll still see the same questions that we always do. Housing stuff, expansion stuff, and ilevel stuff. Stuff that's already been answered here and will be answered two or three more times to come.

Just because they don't take every question doesn't mean that they don't see it or care. It just means that the question can't be used to hype a group of people over something, as the live letters are supposed to do.

Yes, let's have SE divulge in explicit detail all of their current methods for combating RMT and bots. That will only end well, and certainly won't give those very people exactly the information they need to circumvent the system and prosper even more than they already do.

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Originally Posted by Naliee

But still you would think SE is able to track on how the person got the gil.

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It's not THAT simple, I get it. I didn't mean to say that if you get huge amount of money from a friend(generousity, crafting services, etc), you're buying it. For FC funds people can just put it in the chest, no need for 3rd hand really.

But if you receive gil from player that doesn't have any crafting/gathering job lvl'd and no DoM/DoW 50, it's fishy. That's why I said track on. One would think SE is even able to track on our retainers too what they're selling.

It would be so easy to cripple RMT's abilities to advertise in game. You can't stop RMT that happens through third-party sites, but SE could absolutely end the annoying /tell and /shout spam.

Step 1: Make a "flag RMT" option that only appears when you receive a /tell or a /shout. Add a double-confirmation window to prevent mistaken flags.

Step 2: Make "flag RMT" option disappear after 3 minutes; this would reduce chances for player abuse and make investigating flags much easier.

Step 3: Automatically suspend accounts (pending more in-depth review) of accounts that receive 20 RMT flags in one day.

Step 4: Implement harsh penalties against players found to be attempting player abuse through the "report RMT" function. This would be easy to investigate, as SE would just have to look at player logs from when flags are made (and SE could even automate logs being attached to flag reports to make investigations super easy). If the flag option is only available for 3 minutes, then SE will easily be able to check a small enough communication log to verify whether the communication was clearly an RMT message.

Step 5: Clear our black lists of accounts that remain suspended beyond one week.

Done. Spam over, and really no realistic way for players to abuse the system or for RMT to retaliate.

This is a pay to play MMO. The gil sellers have costs for every account they set up (regardless of whether they're legitimately bought accounts or stolen, there are still costs for doing either one). SE only has to slow down the gil spam far enough that the gil sellers are unable to recoup that cost and make a profit. Once the gil sellers stop making a profit from these spam accounts, then the spam will stop.

SE has the means to slow down the spam far enough that it would end up stopping altogether. They know perfectly well how to do it. Yet for some some inexplicable reason have deliberately chosen not to, at least not for their NA/EU customers. Much as I appreciate SE's skill at producing fun and engaging games, this blatant disregard for their customers is rather appalling.

And yes, no matter how fun the game is otherwise, being constantly harassed the whole time you're playing it can ruin the whole experience. Nobody will ever know exactly how many customers SE has lost over this issue, but I'm sure it's a lot, and they'll continue to lose more the longer they allow the problem to persist.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

This is a pay to play MMO. The gil sellers have costs for every account they set up (regardless of whether they're legitimately bought accounts or stolen, there are still costs for doing either one). SE only has to slow down the gil spam far enough that the gil sellers are unable to recoup that cost and make a profit. Once the gil sellers stop making a profit from these spam accounts, then the spam will stop.

SE has the means to slow down the spam far enough that it would end up stopping altogether. They know perfectly well how to do it. Yet for some some inexplicable reason have deliberately chosen not to, at least not for their NA/EU customers. Much as I appreciate SE's skill at producing fun and engaging games, this blatant disregard for their customers is rather appalling.

And yes, no matter how fun the game is otherwise, being constantly harassed the whole time you're playing it can ruin the whole experience. Nobody will ever know exactly how many customers SE has lost over this issue, but I'm sure it's a lot, and they'll continue to lose more the longer they allow the problem to persist.

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Which is why this makes no sense to me whatsoever. Why, as a business, would you willingly choose to lose customers? Is that not a loss of profit? Seeing as how they've already had a pretty long time to do something about this, I can only surmise that yeah, this has to be a choice on their part. The true reason for this eludes me.

Because this seems to be a major problem on small to medium servers, not large/full servers, SE doesn't see an immediate need to fix the problem. They don't realize more people are actually leaving these smaller servers not just because of the inactivity but the rampant spam. By dealing with the problem slowly they are ruining their own servers from growing or finding balance.

SE the stance you are portraying to players on minority servers is "it's your fault for choosing the server and if you don't like it pay for a transfer because our only goal is profits."

Until the Devs actually remedy the issue these servers will remain stagnant ghost towns.

I agree something needs to be done about the gil spamming. Especially since some of the gil sellers are coming from WoW. Only reason I know this is because my bfs parents play WoW (still) plus one of my fc members use to play it. It is really irritating when I am trying to do my shouts for recruitment for my fc and getting blowin up by the bleeps from gil sellers and sometimes I am unable to catch when a person sends me a tell to join my fc! The only moments of silence I get with out the bleeps/ringing whatever you wanna call it is when I go into an instance. Then once I come out it starts all over again -.-

The whisper spam should be the least of your problems if you realized their operations in gil making, they literally have 30+ blackmages teleporting underground killing things, then teleports to a crafting bot sitting in ul'dah turning things into materia. This guy has been doing laps converting materia for 20+ days 24/7 on leviathan and reporting him apparently does nothing. How is this not considered suspicious?

http://i.imgur.com/hzcaWL4.jpg

It's insane that the blatant cheating isn't resolved first and foremost. Here's one of the underground blackmage.

http://i.imgur.com/bQKHlrI.jpg

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Originally Posted by ZettaB

The whisper spam should be the least of your problems if you realized their operations in gil making, they literally have 30+ blackmages teleporting underground killing things, then teleports to a crafting bot sitting in ul'dah turning things into materia.

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Nobody is claiming that the spam is the only problem from gil-sellers, but it is the biggest problem. The spam is the part that's constantly interrupting the gameplay of all the legitimate players. Certainly the gil farming bots are just as much a part of it, but they don't have the same sort of in-your-face harassment going on as the spam bots do. SE really should do a better job of taking care of both parts of the problem, but the spam should be the higher priority piece of the issue. It's the part that's driving customers away.

A few days ago on Ultros there was a level 1 CNJ standing outside the markets in Gridania shouting over and over again. This was about 1pm. I reported him. I came back a few hours later. He was still there. I left and came back at midnight. He was still there. Why don't GMs do random sweeps of the city states and ban these accounts? It just looks like pure laziness on their part to have a character standing in one spot for 12 hours shouting RMT spam and having nothing happen.