The way people price items is laughable at best!

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Originally Posted by Avenger

I suppose some people may be selling at the housing area MB and may not have a vendor in their house, so perhaps it's more convenient to undersell on the MB rather than teleporting to a vendor in the housing area. Or maybe they're dodgy sellers who think that selling to NPCs is overly suspicous. I haven't come up with a sensible reason for doing this...

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Laziness. There's no discard option when an item is in the retainer, so I just throw up junk on the MB for lower than whatever the current price is. I don't want to have to take the item out. I especially don't want to go vendor the item.

I have learned that only people that complain about undercutting usually undercut themselves, be it 1 gil or 10k gil. I take my time to study the markets, I keep track of the price of products I sell and everytime I list something, I list it by average selling price from a varying time range. Yes, it might take a while to sell items, even days or weeks but I do get maximum profit this way. Basically undercutting is a minor fluctuation in the market which doesn't affect me or my profits in any way possible.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

...okay, seriously? Something going at 15k one evening, and the next morning I log in to find the same thing going for less than one TENTH of it? SE needs to put bloody restrictions on lowering prices. Seriously. -_-

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Then you should've listed yours for 12k hoping that somebody would see the price difference and just buy it out without waiting.

What's more likely is that there's simply no demand for the item and too much supply, thus you're going to be undercut before you're able to make the sale.

If you're a crafter/gatherer and that happens, you're in the wrong market, change your market.

If you happened to get the item while running dungeons, then what you've got really isn't worth 15k, you just happened to list it when there was a temporary hike in price OR there's no demand, in the case of the latter, just vendor it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Adera

I have learned that only people that complain about undercutting usually undercut themselves, be it 1 gil or 10k gil. I take my time to study the markets, I keep track of the price of products I sell and everytime I list something, I list it by average selling price from a varying time range. Yes, it might take a while to sell items, even days or weeks but I do get maximum profit this way. Basically undercutting is a minor fluctuation in the market which doesn't affect me or my profits in any way possible.

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That's what I do with things like Materia or low level mats for leveling craft, where there's potential for one person to just buy out the whole market. That way, price is really not an issue, it's just about waiting for the right buyer to come through. Most people complain about how the market works and they seem to have a very one dimensional understanding and method of selling their items on the MB. That's the reason they can't sell.


Before I got into end-game crafting, I used to just quick synth nq ingots (electrum, mythril, silver, etc.) from mats bought from MB. Takes less than 10 minutes to do a full stack.
List the entire stack for about the 80 percentile price and just let it sit, it would sell within a week or so. I still do that from time to time when I go afk, I'll just process electrum ingots or some gemstones and quick synth it while I'm gone. Different items have different buyers with different needs, thus require a.. you guessed it, different selling strategy. Don't wanna put in the time? Well, time to move on to other things, money's not really necessary for most of the game content anyway.

Who gives a ..... what you you think of undercutters. Often time many things are not bought because of too high price and ppl just decide to do it themself in case of many low lvl raw mats and intermediate mats. And this is game by deffinition, you have no right or whatsoever to complain about free mb price undercutting to other ppl, you have no any lawfull or moral right to tell how to enjoy the game for other player. anybody can sell for whatever price they want to.
I for one appreciate the incoming tomstone analogus high end gear for crafters gatherers that will bring the joy and fun to many who want to enjoy those asspects of game precisely because this is supposed to be a game and not some hardcore free market simulator . I hope that will stabilize prices for high end crafted gear and items within reachable limits for avarage player. and that exclusivity elitist attitude should drop considerably. Wana complain about price undercutters? go take it to your local district court and convince them the time you invested in in this MMO is liquidable asset to real money vice versa, and that somewhere in TOS aggreement was point that covered your rights to demand some price agreement from other mb sellers.

lol trust me.. if crafters resort to collusion, all the people complaining about undercutters will be crying their eyes out.
People that complain about undercutting is usually about things in <100k range.. Wanna make 20k more profit on your 100k sale and pay me 8m for a piece of artisan gear? :)
They don't think things through... Undercutting is tremendously helpful to the general masses because it'll make things more affordable.

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Originally Posted by Avenger

The sad thing is that people actually do this and it seems to work. ;-p

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not me , if i see something at 10.000 and another at 9.999 im buying the 10k item , same goes for other items , 150k vs 149.900....or even 149.000

sometimes undercutting sucks , but sometimes is a blessing (for consumables for example , im not buying food or potions that are overpriced ) , pets and gear i can understand, they last forever (gear for glamour once u dont need it anymore) , but consumables NO WAY.

Money moneyyyyyyy monehhhhhh lol
As long as u sell it for more gil than u have used to obtain said item i call it profit lol.

If a seller puts an item up for half of what it generally sounds for, they have a reason for it. There are many possible reasons; maybe they crafted/farmed a lot of them and are trying to unload stock quick to free up inventory. Perhaps they sold it for that price once, and assumed the price is still the same now. Perhaps they got the item for free somehow, and don't need to be concerned with recouping the cost of materials. Whatever the reason, the fact that they put it up for that price implies that they are happy to receive that much money for the item.

If you want to try to capitalize on this, that's fine, but be cautious - if someone's put something up fer cheap, it may be foolishness - OR they may know something about the market that you don't. In the example of the "unload stock" reason above, once you buy that cheap product, expect to see another appear. Then another. Then another. Soon, you've bought out the crafter's overstock, making them ridiculously happy, and leaving YOU with the overstock instead. Now it's on you to try to sell so many items at your higher price. Good luck, especially now that the sale history is filled with lower-price sales!

There may be other reasons; for example, they learned that a new, easier source for Waterproof Cotton is coming, and are unloading their stock before other folks catch on.

Buying cheap and reselling high CAN be pretty profitable, but it's dangerous to assume that anyone who sells low is doing so because they're stupid...

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

lol trust me.. if crafters resort to collusion, all the people complaining about undercutters will be crying their eyes out.
People that complain about undercutting is usually about things in <100k range.. Wanna make 20k more profit on your 100k sale and pay me 8m for a piece of artisan gear? :)
They don't think things through... Undercutting is tremendously helpful to the general masses because it'll make things more affordable.

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The net result would be a market like Masamunes, where everything is affordable...as long as it isnt vendor bought like houses are.


The majority of the people complaining about undercutting are talking about a high % decrease in the items current market value. I'm unsure why you are arguing the point you are, surely you realise this too? Undercutting like that makes markets incredibly unstable and liable to crash.
It helps noone.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Buying cheap and reselling high CAN be pretty profitable, but it's dangerous to assume that anyone who sells low is doing so because they're stupid...

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Just as it is naive to assume they aren't.

I generally don't undercut. And I never have trouble eventually selling all of my wares. Just gotta have patience.

There's a lot of undercutting on Leviathan. People are really ridiculous.

For example, last night all of the clothcraft glam prisms up for sale were priced from 5,000 to 5,900 gil each. So, I put some of each level up for sale at the going prices. An hour later, I look and all of the current prices had dropped 2,000 on each one.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

The majority of the people complaining about undercutting are talking about a high % decrease in the items current market value. Undercutting like that makes markets incredibly unstable and liable to crash. It helps noone.

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It helps the buyers. It also helps in slowing inflation. It further helps in maintaining a balanced distribution of wealth, making more parts of the game more accessible to everyone. In the end it helps everyone.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

People are really ridiculous.

For example, last night all of the clothcraft glam prisms up for sale were priced from 5,000 to 5,900 gil each. So, I put some of each level up for sale at the going prices. An hour later, I look and all of the current prices had dropped 2,000 on each one.

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5000 is ridiculously overpriced unless crystals on your server are costing an arm and a leg. Other than crystals, clothcraft prisms only require NPC vendor materials, meaning its value will tend to approach cost as more and more people ding 50 and are able to make it.

On my server clothcraft prisms go for 2,000 gil on average. Crystals cost 115 gil on average. That means this price guarantees the crafter over 1000gil profit.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

5000 is ridiculously overpriced unless crystals on your server are costing an arm and a leg. Other than crystals, clothcraft prisms only require NPC vendor materials, meaning its value will tend to approach cost as more and more people ding 50 and are able to make it.

On my server clothcraft prisms go for 2,000 gil on average. Crystals cost 115 gil on average. That means this price guarantees the crafter over 1000gil profit.

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It doesn't matter if you believe it's overpriced or not. If that's what they're selling for, and that is what all of the listings are currently at, there is absolutely no reason for one or two people to drive down the price by insane amounts.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

there is absolutely no reason for one or two people to drive down the price by insane amounts.

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If that indeed is what the prisms have been selling for, then what will happen is just that more and more people will notice this, start crafting the prisms and selling them at 4900, the next guy notices and sells at 4800, the next at 4500, 4000, 3750, 3500, 3000, 2500, 2000, at which point most of the new entrants will leave because their listings over 2000 didn't sell and the profit is no longer worth their effort.

Now if the transaction history shows a huge list of prisms sold at 5900 then suddenly at 2000, then it means one of two things:

1) The 5900 was just a temporary shortage of supply, and that the actual "going price" was supposed to be 2000, so when those who have been selling comes back from work and post his products, he didn't check the price and listed directly for 2000.

2) You have a malicious seller that wants to chase you out of the market.

For example on my server the clothcraft prisms can sometimes go up to 3000, but only for a very, very, very short time during the early day when very little people are playing (late night players who got new gear bought up the prisms just before they go offline, but all the crafters have gone to bed, creating a temporary void in the supply) by close to noon the listings will have been filled down to 2000 again.

Just a hint: different servers, different situations!
Please do not mix all servers into same boat...

This is why we need a blind auction house like they had in 11. Price stabilization. Every weekend people drop the prices of sealants by over half just because they want them to sell quick, then it slowly climbs back up during the week.

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Originally Posted by Nadrojj

This is why we need a blind auction house like they had in 11. Price stabilization. Every weekend people drop the prices of sealants by over half just because they want them to sell quick, then it slowly climbs back up during the week.

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That was a very inconvenient system for buyers. In the end you can still check the price history anyway, so people who want to sell quick will still drop the price.

Fundamental truths of market board pricing;

Someone will undercut you.
Everything will sell if priced at the long term average.
Supply and Demand are absolute.
When you see a 10gil item selling for 10,180,000 gil (or something similar) be assured that this is almost certainly an RMT transaction where someone is being paid 10 million gil (the extra 180K pays the MB tax/fee ensuring a 10 million even transaction - or so my university educated brain suggests), it's *not* an error, it's almost certainly a cheat in action, or someone attempting to get around the limitations in gil transfer between Alts.
A short term view leads to undercutting.
Long term thinkers make more money over time.
HQ always sells better.

people are greedy, and when someone else sells lower they decide is not *fair* and shouldnt be allowed and the yadayadaydada....Free market is just about that, free, there is no right or wrong, undercut is not wrong, neither over priced is wrong, as long as it sells what does it matter if over or under priced ?

If people are happy with what they get what does it matter the rest ? nothing forbids any to undercut the price of the already undercut price....or be intelligent enough and dont sell and wait better time or just stop building/collecting or what not that particular itme...is a game, you know, is not like life was depending on it.

To me what is laughable is the seriousness on how people take this game as if everything was revolving around it...especially when it comes to ..virtual money.

Just me though

Mei

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

It doesn't matter if you believe it's overpriced or not. If that's what they're selling for, and that is what all of the listings are currently at, there is absolutely no reason for one or two people to drive down the price by insane amounts.

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There are plenty of reasons to do that.
1. You still make profit.
2. It sells faster.
3. It drives competition out.

3 being the most important point.

Glamour prisms are usually a specialist market so the turf war is a little more serious than others.



Besides,

It doesn't matter if you think it's ridiculously underpriced or not, if that's what they're selling for and that's what the undercutter prices his items at, there's absolutely no reason you can't compete in the same market using the same resources.

Especially true for glam prisms, vendor bought mats, and no hq. Even playing field.

Oh trust me, I'll play the game if that's what people wanna do. It's just annoying at how some of them go about it.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

The only items this could truly apply for are items with materials bought entirely from a vendor.

''cost less then 10k'' Yes, but only because those materials are posted on the board for a total of less then 10k. It might well be that those items are underpriced, rather then the finished product being overpriced.

There is also supply and demand.
For example: if it bothers you so much, why not produce the item yourself?


Your reasoning is off. Undercutters are a problem because they also don't know the market. They will undercut 5 times a day for 10k each, even tho the item only sells at one specific time of the day. And even tho they only got undercut for perhaps 101gil themselves.


I do that all the time. But I don't undercut by 10k, but rather 100, 100 or even 1 gil. Precisely because I have entire stacks of the item. With that much future stock it doesnt make much sense to devalue the market.

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Materials are underpriced? lol, that doesn't change the fact is hella cheap to make. Just like the glamour prism mentioned - cost maybe about 1k to make but people want to sell it for 6x the price - wonder why you get undercut? Sell 1 for 5k profit but takes forever or selling 10 fast for 1k profit each.

And yes, there might be some stupid people out there - and therefore I can take advantage and resell their items - more profit for me.
But alot of them know what they are doing and often stay in the same markets. No matter if it is just reducing the profit margin of each item by selling large volumes of it, or just stocking mats when it's low and driving people out of the market.

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Originally Posted by Blissa

There is a demand or I would not be able to resell. The problem is people have the right now mentality, they cant wait more then 2 seconds to sell something. So people like me are happy to buy the item and resell it when undercutter's go to bed and because prices go back up.

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You get your profits, they get there profits - both sides happy. Why are you making a thread to pretty much looking down on them.

I think Masamune is a special case where the supply is just too high - the prices are super low but also taking into consideration that there's tons of the items on the MB.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Oh trust me, I'll play the game if that's what people wanna do. It's just annoying at how some of them go about it.

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That goes back to point #3. They WANT you to be annoyed and move on to another market.

There are always ways to beat that though, but that does require a lot of resources.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

The majority of the people complaining about undercutting are talking about a high % decrease in the items current market value. I'm unsure why you are arguing the point you are, surely you realise this too? Undercutting like that makes markets incredibly unstable and liable to crash.
It helps noone.

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Yes it does (help someone that is), volatile markets doesn't mean everybody suffers. Let's set this straight. We're playing a close to zero sum game. Sure there's always green gil being introduced, but considering that a high-end crafter can move millions in a day, as opposed to what a green gil farmer can make in a day, I think it's safe to say that we're in a closed system playing with finite amount of gil. Especially true when talking about the niche of high-end crafting market where most of the goods sold are being sold to other crafters.

So, for every losses somebody endures, the profits have to go to somebody else playing the same market. People just don't see it as easily because it's not quite as evident, but to people like me who actually pay attention to names of retainers and actually KNOW to whom each of those retainers belong to, it makes the flow of money a little more visible.


Now having said that, I seldom undercut by large amounts like you described, but that's only because I crash the market as a strategy and I very rarely have to employ such tactic these days.. I used to do it a lot more frequent before and it still made me quite a bit of profit.

Try keeping track of retainers and see who's listing what and who's buying it.. Where the money's coming from, where it goes to, etc. It all starts to make a lot more sense. I've learned a great deal about playing the market just by observing how some of the other people play the market.

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

That goes back to point #3. They WANT you to be annoyed and move on to another market.

There are always ways to beat that though, but that does require a lot of resources.

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I know, but I'm not going anywhere. In fact, I'm just getting started. Because, as of now, the only ones I'm selling are clothcraft. Once I get my other crafters to 50, I will be selling all types.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I know, but I'm not going anywhere. In fact, I'm just getting started. Because, as of now, the only ones I'm selling are clothcraft. Once I get my other crafters to 50, I will be selling all types.

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That's good then, if you consistently undercut them, almost to the point of no profit, you can and will eventually drive out your competition when he realizes it's not worth the trouble. Then you can hike the price back up for a while until another person tries to compete with you.

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

That's good then, if you consistently undercut them, almost to the point of no profit, you can and will eventually drive out your competition when he realizes it's not worth the trouble. Then you can hike the price back up for a while until another person tries to compete with you.

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Well yeah, but I'm not the one who initiates it. I just will continue with what other people start. ;)

What makes me facepalm is when someone not only undercuts HQ they also undercut NQ at the same time lol.

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Originally Posted by Blissa

Before anyone jumps on me, its a free market and people are going to do what they want to do. (just a example) But I have to laugh every time I see a item selling well for 90k and then some one comes along and is selling the 4 of the same item for 60k and then the next guy comes along selling the same item for 40k! And before you know it the 90k item is worthless.

What I do is buy low and wait for the low ballers to go to bed and raise the price and profit when I wake up in the morning. If people could wait more then 2 seconds to sell something I would be out of business.

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I like occasionally buying them all up and reposting for the price people were willing to pay in the 1st place ;) Someone post 20k under everyone else sounds like a chance to make a profit to me :)

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

You can try to play the market like that if you want.
But one day you're gonna be the one stuck holding the Hot Potato.
When that happens, don't come crying that "the item is now worthless" when you're stuck with a bunch of them because you tried to make a quick buck reselling it.

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When you make over 1-2 million gil a week without even trying very hard this becomes much less of an issue ;)

Choose your markets wisely is all i can say. Sometimes I've take hug losses to stock up, held onto them for a week or two and prices went back up again and them made my money back. Patience is also key. Just because they trend lower for a bit doesn't mean they will keep trending lower, its all about supply and demand after all.

At one point or another an item will lose it's value completely and sometimes that is enough for people to offload it as fast as possible.

Would you rather sell 5 of x item for 90k or would you rather offload your inventory of 50 of them for 40k? It's little things like that which add up, sure you can make 450k(excluding tax) from selling 5 of them at 90k but on the other hand you make 2mil selling them at 40k.

Let's look at the above again and just assume they take 20k to make, so making 50 cost 1mil. Now let's look at the above again.

You only sell 5 for 90k and made 450k that means you ended up losing 550k gil over that venture cause let's say the market crashed and now they are only worth 20k or less. On the otherhand because you offloaded it fast and sold for 40k you ended up with a 1mil profit and no loss. Those are the type of perspectives you have to keep in mind when and why people sell certain items at a certain rate.

(yes, I'm shamelessly bumping my own post because it was on a very underpriviledged position last time, rs, guess almost nobody had the chance to read it unless going back a page)

I think that happens for a reason more explained by psychology than by economics...

OK, so, first we have to acknowledge the LEX MAGNA, the mother of all laws of MMO economics. Which is the following:

"The only thing of true value in any MMO economy, is TIME."

Yes, time. Essentially, every time you buy something from another player, you are paying him for their time spent doing something in-game you can't/don't want to spend time doing yourself. Be that leveling a class, farming an item, spiritbonding materia, etc, etc. Now, the tricky part is, how do you measure how much YOUR time is worth? Well, if you are a teenager with a truckload of free time, it's pretty obvious that you don't think of each individual hour of playing time as having the same ammount of inherent worth than, let's say, a father of two who can log in every couple of days for 3 hours tops.

So, FOR THAT GUY, the teenager, getting 40k Gil for the time he spent making that item is about enough, he simply doesn't care that much, he can make (or farm) more if he wants more cash. And he rather have the money ASAP than having to wait a day or 2 to sell that item. He won't log off after putting that in the MB to sell, he'll continue playing and there's stuff he wants to do with that Gil. Now, of course, for the Family Man with little free time, this seems outrageous, but that's what you get with the level of free market you have in MMOs. He who can play more dictates, the others get the short end of the stick.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

On the contrary, that would actually mean more people would undercut since they'd pay reduced tax fees for smaller sales.

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They would lose money. There are people who live on the MBs. When they sell stuff they will undercut over and over until its sold. If we had to pay the taxes up front it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

As for Me I'm listing stuff the same price as what is already for sale. If I got 99 items I'll split them and they sell faster.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

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I've seen you quote that three times already,
While I agree with the idea, it's rather sophomoric and not as complex as you like to describe it. You didn't stumble upon some game changing interpretation of MMO Economics is what I'm trying to say, which is why nobody's giving you any feed back. We all know that already :)

Also, I don't understand why Psychology comes into it when time is already an established metric in Economics.

This is all basic supply and demand...

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Originally Posted by Zfz

5000 is ridiculously overpriced

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Tell this to my ARM prisms that i sold for 14.999k each few weeks ago and i had to craft newones non-stop just to keepup with demand.

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

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Actually, that was a tentative rationalization on why prices in the MB and similar systems can be so erratic, and what is the underlying reason for people agressively undercutting and not caring as much about their profit margins.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Actually, that was a tentative rationalization on why prices in the MB and similar systems can be so erratic, and what is the underlying reason for people agressively undercutting and not caring as much about their profit margins.

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But your interpretation is inadequate.
I'm not arguing the point btw, I agree with what you said.
But most gamers already calculate currency/time to measure efficacy of their currency earning methods. Same goes for real life, people calculate their earning potential by salary per month or wage per hour. So I'm sure nobody doubts the value of time being a determining factor for prices.


But when it comes to why people undercut on the MB, there's usually more than just the value of time playing into the prices.
I don't undercut out of spite, I do it to maximize my profits, even WITH time factored in.
Usually, when people go into detail about what they're doing to make gil, especially with crafting, and they complain of people driving the price below the point of profitability, that happens because they're operating inefficiently. (buying a vendor mat from MB, using the more expensive token to trade in, using the more expensive seal to buy the item, etc.)

No amount of free time on your hands will make value of your goods go below the price of raw mats. Only case this happens is for overstock of items made during leveling where gil was not your main motivation.

i.e. If somebody gathered the materials for say, electrum ingot, there's no reason it would be priced below the cost of 4 electrum ores + 5 wind shards because the mats already have a decent turn around, there's no reason to.

Now, when it DOES happen, you have to try and find out why it's happening because if it is indeed priced below raw costs, it is not sustainable. There must be a very good reason somebody would do something so "irrational". You can attribute it to the ignorance of the other party and move on OR try to figure out the underlying causes of it.


If you know when certain items sell, in what quantities it's used by, what city your major customer base may be hanging around in, it all comes together to give you an edge.
Undercutting is just one of the numerous market strategies that exist in this game. I've sold far more items than competitors even when mine was priced higher due to taking advantage of the other aspects of the MB.

and that's why undercutting is not an issue, if undercutting becomes an issue for you it's either

a. Item has no demand, move on
b. Somebody's employing a strategy, identify it and see what you can do to counter it.

You say you don't care why it's happening? just list for average price and wait a week, it'll sell if there's demand.

Actually I think you missed the point entirely.

It's less "out of spite" than it is because you don't attribute the same ammount of inherent economic value to each hour you spend playing as the person who doesn't log in as much. You don't see your goods as being undervalued in relation to the time you spent to make them (or to get your char up to the point you can make said item quickly), even with the massive undercut.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Actually I think you missed the point entirely.

It's less "out of spite" than it is because you don't attribute the same ammount of inherent economic value to each hour you spend playing as the person who doesn't log in as much. You don't see your goods as being undervalued in relation to the time you spent to make them (or to get your char up to the point you can make said item quickly), even with the massive undercut.

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But that's precisely my point.. I actually take time into account very much and at the end of the day my gil/time ends up being higher than people who insist on selling things for what they think is the "right" price.

It just bothers me so much to see people who are so afraid to invest into their gear/production so I try to make the point of systematic mass production and reinvesting to everybody I talk to about crafting and that's probably coming on a little strong on these forums. But it really bugs me to see people sitting on 10, 20, 30 million gil and still insist on waiting for the right time, going out to gather their own mats, etc.. When you have 30 million gil, you can just invest 20 of it back in and craft away, even with a little bit of undercutting, you'll still make a lot more than waiting for the right moment to sell that 1 item.


It's not that I value my time less than the other guy per se, I just use it more efficiently by cutting corners where possible, so my ROI on time still ends up higher than others.
That is the point I'm trying to make, most people that complain here about the undercutting on MB feel they're being driven below profit because they have so much inefficiencies.

Supply and demand in action!