For crying out loud, I beg of you, give me some CHALLENGE!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

I wouldn't consider darkhold a challenge. You see a true challenge is something that even after you learn how to do it you still can fail with a couple mistakes. no matter what setup how good the group is ect. That's a real challenge. Darkhold took a week or 2 to learn and now people can do it in Swimsuits. its a complete joke. to consider that a challenge is very sad.

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I see what you mean. That would be pretty epic. What kind of games have you played where that was the case?

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

I remember in EQ a blue mob, which is under your level, is what your group would fight.
And seeing as you solo reds in FFXIV, well that alone tells you how they have structured this game.


I believe after analyzing the data, there much be statistics that show catering to casual players is more profitable for MMOs.

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I've analyzed the current population of this game and casuals left the game about 6 months ago. Now it's just ex XIers and FF-diehard fans. Nothing casual about either of those groups. (yes this is statistics completely pulled out of thin air =)

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Originally Posted by Seif

(yes this is statistics completely pulled out of thin air =)

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And is completely incorrect. From what I read on this forum, there are at least some casual players left, me included. And we aren't small minority either.

To say nothing about the fact, that the current population probably can't sustain the game. And if all those ex XIers and FF-die hards are already here, then guess which is the only group that can be attracted to the game? Casuals.

I think, as ever, you need to let them get the systems actually finished before you continue on about 'challenge'. I remember reading that the future plan is for an even Ranked monster to take 40 seconds per fight, with better gear meaning they take around 30 seconds. Even as stated, they released the dungeons (against their better judgement) before things were complete. Why? Because people complained that there was nothing to do.

Difficulty will also jump somewhat when we don't have hugely inflated stats compared to our current actual level. Start a new character and go fight some Dodos when you are a few Ranks below them - they are not fun, and often the two linked monster Leves can destroy you. Compare that to when you Rank up a second class at high Physical and basically roll over it in one or two hits. As to the XP per monster - that can always be changed, the entire system has already changed once!

As ever though, it boils down to letting them finish making the changes to the game - it is possible that changes to the classes and stats will make Darkhold more challenging again, as you come at it with the intended set of stats and abilities. If not, well then they can change it to suit the cemented battle system, rather than trying to keep changing it for this inbetween system that we have at the moment, and that they would have to go back and change after the fact.

im still waiting to see a nice battle wiht the emipre or a nice mission to sneak into the empires base and get information to maybe turn the game into an all out war.. maybe the grand company will add some scouting quests, maybe some crafting quests where we have to give armor, wepaons, and food to a outpost to increase the morale of the soldiers there. which will inturn make them fight better maybe in like a big open world battle with the empire that happens every 36hrs. and im not talking about a lazy behest warden that doesnt fihgt and gives crappy gil. Make the open battles worht something maybe give us grand company seals or gil. id also like to see in some shape or form a "Maat" type fight because when i beat him i felt proud and that it mean something... maybe with the new clases coming out we have t odo a lil quest and then fight 1v1 with the npc of the class we want. also if i remember right arent we getting some j.s.e but i dont see any new info on this either..
j.s.e= job specific equipment.
im talking about like in ffxi we had the af gear, some of it was good some of it ppl thought it was crappy.

lastly where is my crazy super lazy black choco that i had in ffxi that ppl could out run

I am not speaking for others. The way I see (or used to see) this game has one central aspect: A game with two paths which meet each other at frequent crossroads, but provide different avenues for two different populations; thus actually achieving for casuals and hardcore players what FFXI had done for Western and Asian audiences before.

To my mind this is not impossible and I know I'm not alone in thinking this way; I can see the outlines of this idea in many things Naoki Yoshida writes or communicates in interviews. However, I would like for a statement, a confirmation, a promissory note to the point that the developers, while they might not be there yet, are, however, endeavoring towards a game in which, regardless of the path you choose, you will be left pumped up with exhilaration at the end of both events and regular grind meets. I'm not asking for a major adrenaline rush, mind you, since I know the limitations of the genre, but a consistent feeling of having beaten a good and well crafted zone; the feeling of winning a good couple of players at bridge or tennis; the feeling we so frequently had in ffxi (I'm not asking for the hardship of that game, but its feeling.)

I am no game designer wannabe. I don't want to tell the devs how to do it. I want to be a player and as a player I find that, right now, battles are far too short, and I'm afraid this is so by design. And there's a numbing blandness to the sameness and predictability of it all. Last night my light party of 4 ravaged, pillaged and totally exterminated (several times) the Ixali population near Camp Glory; and I went from rank 46 to 49 in little more than 2 hours, all the while examining the contrasts between Quebecois gastronomy and that of New York (where I live,) discussing laundry styles (literally) and analyzing this very topic during combat. More than 80% of the encounters left me without being able to use any of my actions, since I could not accumulate enough TP before the mob was dead. And that, given that at least one of the scouting players, would not manage to make it in time to engage the monster.

My brother, a self professed casual player that seldom if ever plays more than 4 hours per week, was left complaining about the stolid blandness of it all (and he wasn't referring to the conversation.) I heard him express, quite a surprise for me, a craving for FFXI, a game whose steep curve he hated, not having managed to surpass rank 55 in his one job in 4 years of play.

why would they give us harder stuff just so everyone can complain about how hard it is?

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I was in a full grinding party, with my r47 THM this morning and I felt exactly like I did when I wrote the post linked above. The same sense of futility came over me all over again. Only a few things have changed, perhaps the basic attack is no longer so overpowered, but that made very little difference in the fight. The party couldn't bring itself to care whether or not it was buffed, whether or not people died (out of boredom-induced distraction, mind you, not difficulty,) or whether or not we could keep the number of attacking mobs down to only one. Links or no links, each mob would barely pose the threat of our tank losing at most a quarter of his HP.

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I'm convinced it's impossible to have a challenging grind. It is the nature of grinding to find the path of least resistance (which is really what the challenge becomes). If there is too much risk of being killed (and thus slowing down the grind), you're doing it wrong. In fact, if there's any part where you have to so much as think because making the wrong choice will slow you down, you're doing it wrong.

Grinding necessitates making the combat experience as mindless and decision-free as you possibly can. If there are mobs that are unpredictable, have nasty debuffs, or could slay the whole party in one shot, you don't fight those. You find mobs that are ripe with sp/xp and have wimpy skills and defenses that won't slow you down in any shape or form. If those mobs get nerfed, you fight the next easiest ones that are ripe with sp/xp. There's never any motivation to try something hard.

The only way to make a grind more challenging is to offer incentives and rewards for grinding faster. But even then, you'll find people working out how to make a mindless, routine "assembly line" out of this as well.

People don't go after tough mobs unless there's a reward at the end that makes it worthwhile. So people will spend all day in a zone chasing after sub-bosses, mid-bosses, big bosses, and the final mega boss because the mega boss, you see, drops the "I'm better than you" armor piece that will make you better than everyone else (as advertised).

Ironically, because this is such a bother, even this type of scenario gets turned into a routine that anyone can follow. It's only the first people to conquer such a mega boss on a routine basis that really master the challenge. Everyone else just follows the mindless routine they created in their wake.

Therefore, the challenge of any MMO player is to take all the challenge out of the MMO they're playing. :P

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

I'm convinced it's impossible to have a challenging grind. It is the nature of grinding to find the path of least resistance (which is really what the challenge becomes). If there is too much risk of being killed (and thus slowing down the grind), you're doing it wrong. In fact, if there's any part where you have to so much as think because making the wrong choice will slow you down, you're doing it wrong.

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One of my brain's hemispheres wants to agree with you, and yet... ¿Did you ever play FFXI? Links, and variations in mob strength, to say nothing of the collision and overlapping that would throw the spell-cycle rhythms out of sync, and the complexities of a grind ultimately based on pulling (even the resulting deaths, and wipes and player's tantrums,) all provided subtle variations throughout all the game's grinding camps. The grind had an ebb and flow that kept you interested and awake You tended to be on your toes and alert during the grind. I'm not saying, though, that the system didn't have its prominent cons.

You're very right about the psychology of MMO gamers, but in FFXI, I think, the designers of the core game (plus the first 4 expansions) managed to create environments in which those tendencies were subtly contradicted (well, perhaps it wasn't that subtle in CoP.) If, doing this, the game lost the masses forever, it succeeded in gathering around itself one of the most loyal, devoted, and consistent communities of players in the history of the genre.

I've experienced something relatively close to that type of interest-generating combat in FFXIV, fighting the Great Buffalo in Coearthas (with its devastating Rage, and all those crabs ready to link,) and perhaps Dodore in Mhor Dhona. But two mobs ain't gonna make a game.

I knew they were going for the masses (and they could only get those from the casuals.) I knew it from the moment they announced they were working on another MMO, and planned to remain in FFXI. However, after the fiasco of the launch, I thought SE would shift their priorities, and try to cater to the FFXI crowd, the only ones that would be willing to put up with their habit to produce clunky interface and the counter-intuitive concepts and processes. What bothers me right now, is that I see an attempt to please both constituencies (that's OK, I still believe it can be done,) however, everything that has been designed anew with the legacy players in mind seems to me to be way too watered-down.

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

One of my brain's hemispheres wants to agree with you, and yet... ¿Did you ever play FFXI? Links, and variations in mob strength, to say nothing of the collision and overlapping that would throw the spell-cycle rhythms out of sync, and the complexities of a grind ultimately based on pulling (even the resulting deaths, and wipes and player's tantrums,) all provided subtle variations throughout all the game's grinding camps. The grind had an ebb and flow that kept you interested and awake You tended to be on your toes and alert during the grind. I'm not saying, though, that the system didn't have its prominent cons.

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Ironically, I actually fondly remember the times in FFXI when things went awry somehow (pulled too many mobs, someone critical disconnected) and we still managed to figure out how to stay alive because dying was a painful enough experience that you really didn't want it to happen. The times when "things were running smoothly" were quite dull and forgettable even though that's absolutely what you strived for (because dying was a painful enough experience that you really didn't want it to happen).

In FFXIV, stripping down to your low-level skivvies and leaping into the mouth of the nearest "big bad" is actually considered a form of transportation. Death just doesn't have the same edge, wouldn't you say? I'm not sure what effect that will have on memorable experiences in this game. But I digress.

If you listen to a musician play their instrument, they make it look easy. There's no hesitation. No missed notes. Just beautiful, complex sound. It's because they took all the uncertainty out of it by practicing, practicing, practicing. Even successful musicians constantly practice.

MMO combat ends up being very similar to this. You fight in repetitive battles, knowing the limits of what you're capable of, knowing the timing of when to use your abilities. You string along several fights in a similar manner to hone your techniques, your macros, etc. so there are no mistakes, no hesitations especially when things get unexpectedly complicated.

The reason why I had those fond memories of surviving impossible odds in FFXI was because all that boring, forgettable, routine combat we were doing actually made us confident and certain of what we could do to win. We practiced. And when things got out of hand, we triumphed (well, sometimes, anyway :p).

Before we think of marketing, there must be a product to market. FFXIV is not there yet, I'm afraid. But we all hope it will be there soon. It's anybody's guess how SE will manage the marketing of the relaunch, then.

However, judging from the clear-eyed, objective-oriented management Yoshida has given this game since he took the reins, I feel quite reassured that they won't blow the second chance at marketing it.

However, I re-state: first, they need a game to market.

Rut

I agree with this 100% this is one of the reasons I don't like this game too much. There is absolutely no challenge or strategy/etc in this game what so ever.

First of all from all the allowable broken mechanics of the game such as:

1) people leeching aka power leveled by someone maxed level and easily getting cap.

2) how extremely easy it is to hit max level with just leve spam 24/7 which are all super easy with any class and get instant xp handed out in a silver platter with minimal effort.

3) how overpowered it is to get a class to max level and have 50 physical level which means your low level class has super powered stats, and yes having 100 vit ( even if it gets capped per level max) gives you too great of advantage. Thank god they are fixing this at least tho.

4) also being able to use any skill with any class at any level and ability being at almost 100% power of original form, such as using shock spikes 2 stoneskin 2 protect 2 shell 2 on a level 1 character and of course stygian spikes+ sacrifice 2-3 and going god mode thorough almost all the low to mid levels and heck even max levels it still feels too much. They really need to balance this out. In ff1 you at least had skill level and weapon level so sub job skills were never used at full power and never anything over half level.
This also makes classes not feel unique because every class can essentially use any skills at any time so nothing really stands out that much, or feel unique. This i read is hopefully going to be balanced.

Finally as OP mentioned every fight on the game is so easy no one really cares too much for buffs/strategy/etc because everyone can just spam their way through all fights anyways.

P.S- in my honest opinion its a little too late on these balance, a lot of people have abused their way to max rank and even now after they hear physical level being removed they are trying to max anything fast. my legion mates are all playing the game like a marathon getting anything that might seem hard to level before balance.

I for one would love for total server reset with all balance+ new classes added and tons of new stuff as a expansion and ps3 release, but this of course would piss people off who think they "earned" their levels lol.

Over all this game needs to beef up enemy a ton and make some sort of challenge, every enemy feels too easy on any class i play. Also wish more enemy agro to bring some danger while roaming around.

sorry for long rant but this has been my thought for a long time, I for one am sick and tired of getting 3-7k xp with leve "daily" spam and just steam roll through everything with little effort. They need to remove all this WoW generation mentality and bring back some ff11 stuff to this game.