Very true, however that hasn't changed the fact that the majority are now still using tome weapons rather than going the raid or relic routes. A full zodiac is a big deal when I see one. They're so uncommon that I can count on one hand the number I've seen in the last week... and that's including non-zeta zodiacs.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamesmart
So, the big question is why so many are turning to soldiery weapons rather than relic. It is, after all, a good 20 ilvls lower than Zodiac. The reason is simple. Getting to the same stage on a relic takes a huge amount of effort and time. You pretty much have to dedicate your time towards it rather than have it something you slowly obtain over time, as is with the soldiery tomes.
Atma's don't just randomly drop anywhere, they drop in Fates. With an Atma equipped. So, you HAVE to run them on a job which needs them, which earns you nothing else except perhaps a few extra seals and some loose change. The books require you to go out of your way to complete them, finding that enemy that only has 3 spawns in the entire zone or waiting hours for Fates to spawn. And trying to 'casually' complete Nexus would take literally months, by which time they might well have made the next tier of weapons more readily available.
In contrast, soldiery tomes drop from just about every major content in the game. Even prior to the changes, you could earn 450 per week so would earn your weapon in 3 weeks. All without going out of your way to try. Just do the content you normally do, on any job you want. Simple.
Now, I'm not saying that I like Thunderbreak's idea all that much. I daresay that would trivialize the relic a bit too much. However, I do believe something should be done to help alleviate the immense and monstrous grind that zodiac has become. Or at the very least make it a bit more enjoyable to run through.
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03-06-2015, 07:24 PMLemuria
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03-06-2015, 08:06 PMJameinSorry but this is exactly what you SHOULD do with the relic, slowly gain it over time. The problem people are having is they are playing catch up and starting it now that they have nerfed previous steps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
If you do your relic and keep it up to date as the patches come out, then it's not THAT bad (within reason, I know some people have bad RNG). This is the price you pay if you are playing catch up with content, you have more to do.
Now as for how BORING/RNG the grind is, that is something that I think needs to be addressed. The grind is real no doubt, but I don't think its unreasonable at all considering you get a high end weapon for doing no high end raids, so the grind in my eyes is fair. The actual mind numbing dullness of the grind however, is ridiculous. -
03-06-2015, 08:19 PMSynestraYet most peoples i see with upgraded Relic are end-game raiders, now that i think of this i personally dont know anyone with Zeta that do not raid at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihaya
Just saying. -
03-06-2015, 10:07 PMLemuriaReading comprehension 101. You're actually agreeing with me, The problem, as mentioned, is that you literally CANT 'slowly earn it over time', it's something you simply must dedicate time to outside your normal gameplay or you won't even get a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamein
And not even a small amount of time, we're talking a significant time investment outside of the usual gameplay. Again, not a casual grind.
Well, that's really the point. I've been working on my relic since they were actually released. It took me a VERY long time to farm up the Atmas for the first stage due to horrid RNG, an equally long time to obtain and complete the various books and I daresay that obtaining the Alexandrite and the materia needed for Novus was a lesson in pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamein
During this time the relic moved swiftly ahead without me. I'm currently on Novus, working towards Nexus but we've already got Excalibur Zeta waiting in the wings as the 'end-goal' for relic. So not only do I need to finish grinding the Nexus (currently on around 30%), I now have two more grind stages to complete. For those who can really spare the time, no doubt they've can do their relics done within months, but the argument constantly levelled at this grind is that it's aimed at casual players.
Well, I'm casually playing, and it's casually taking ages to complete. -
03-06-2015, 10:29 PMJameinMy reading comprehension is fine thank you I agreed that it is a boring and frustrating grind, however I don't agree that it is too long. Why should you get a relic by just playing normally, doing daily roulette etc? You should have to do something outside of normal gamplay. I'm not saying you play more, but you use your playtime towards the relic instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
Now as for casually playing, I personally use the term 'casual' in reference to those who aren't going hardcore into the end game raids. I don't believe the relic is for those who only have a few hours to play a week.
If the best gear is not behind a skillwall then it should be behind a timesink, otherwise we would all be running around sporting the best items and that's just not how MMO's work, as time goes on those previous BIS items become easier to obtain as new BIS become available, the people with less time to play will always be behind those who have more time, and that to me is relatively fair.
I don't feel the grind is too long, I just feel (like you) that it is way too boring and definitely too RNG based. It needs to be addressed, but not shortened. -
03-07-2015, 07:50 AMthunderbreakRead previous posts, subject has already been explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyMonster
Read previous posts, subject has already been explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamesmart
Also, I don't agree with her, she's taking shots at me why can't I defend my perspective? I feel my reasons are very good too. -
03-07-2015, 08:36 AMChihayaI believe that is what a relic should be, a big deal - showing the time and effort you put in to get a weapon like that. Much like the time and effort people put into raids for coil weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
And you very much should dedicate time into a weapon that can be 20 ilvls higher than soldiery weapons and currently better than FCOB weapons. Do keep in mind that these currency weapons were once locked behind coils, and as of now Ironworks weapons is still not available outside of coil. The relic grind is getting easier and easier patch by patch - wouldn't be surprised in even more decrease in light farming or increase rate of atma/zodiac item dropping. The new step from zodiac to zeta is a huge joke as people had their zeta on the 2nd day after patchQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
You have other choices of weapons if you do not wish to raid or do the time sink - no one is forcing you to do the zodiac weapon path. If you find it is not worth the effort, don't do it, simple as that.
For a lot of us that are doing the zodiac path - yes we find the grind to be boring but we do support that it is behind a time sink and not just given out without dedicating any time for just getting the weapon.
What you consider end-game raider, I cleared up to t9 and barely touched final coil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
I got 2 zodiac weapon each with 2-5 mahatma done and a novus with robust activity. -
03-07-2015, 09:03 AMDarkmoonVael
So this very much sounds like nerfing the time it takes to get a relic weapon beyond beliefe. So lets get this right, to get to the next stage of a relic this way i just need to beat the newest Primal EX and then have an average ilvl that determines wether the relic is at the max level or not?
Soooooo.......
Whats the point of EX primal weapon drops then?
I could then just abuse the living daylights out of crafted gear to get a shiney new relic weapon?
To get my WHM relic up to i110 from i100 i can just like equip full tank poetic gear accessories? (This one sounds truely broken and is just being used as an example).
I now basically have to put no effort into getting a relic weapon upgraded since it would now (with this suggestion) be handed to me on a silver platter as i just gear up normally?
How about no? -
03-07-2015, 09:28 AMthunderbreakHow about read the all the posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael
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03-07-2015, 10:26 AMgamesmartIf you're going to meaningfully debate, don't strawman the other person's argument - that makes your argument look even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbreak
And I've read your previous posts, there's no followup to a) the fact that relics have only just recently become BiS, and b) the actual value of relics in gameplay, especially raid content.
Personally, I think the relic grind has gotten better content-wise over time, maybe aside from pre-nerf Nexus. Novus and Zodiac don't require you to play as your relic job, and Zeta is so fast I don't even think that's worth calling a grind compared to the other stages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
That said, they have taken some steps to alleviate the grind - though Animus books haven't really changed (which, save for cutting out a FATE or dungeon, would probably be harder to nerf). Zodiac stage nerf aside (please make DD/AV drops at least 75% (hyperbole) for the sake of anyone doing it) I guess we can only hope that Heavensward's relic will be more unique. -
03-07-2015, 02:02 PMTinyMonsterExplained or not your idea is still bad! The relic is suppose to be a GRIND! They should maybe fix the zodiac rng fest but not the relic completely. Also I really dislike the way you treat people that are against you so it's the last time I'm going to write here.Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbreak
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03-07-2015, 06:24 PMDarkmoonVaelHow about no? I read your initial post and responded to it. if you want to clarify anything, then feel free to respond to my post in a constructive manner rather than this. Bad idea has now got to the stage of terrible it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbreak
And as far as i can see, you havent adressed any of these in your previous posts, so how about you manage to reconcile these concerns with your ideas? -
03-07-2015, 08:28 PMSynestraWell then you might actually be a minority :P FcoB entrance area is always filled with Zodiac users with odd tome/dreadwyrm users here and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihaya
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03-07-2015, 10:39 PMTinyMonsterI actually don't plan on doing Coil heck I'm still on T9 but I've still a lot to do before getting to Zodiac lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Synestra