I can understand ramnbros cause hes still alive and his status hasn't changed, but if the sultan died or wasn't sultan wouldn't if be odd she was in the cutscene for the cooking quest and was still addressed as sultan? (AH! LALAFELL GHOST!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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02-16-2015, 03:14 AMTalia_Hailwind
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02-16-2015, 03:28 AMmyahele
I don't think the potato will die. She's far too popular and well liked to be killed. However, it's possible that there might be an event that'll taker her out of commission for a while. Like becoming comatose due to poisoning and it'll be up to us either in next patch or the expansion to cure her. Actually, I can see how her being in a coma will provide a nice political turmoil/ civil war in Ul'Dah.
She's not dead, yet, but there are plenty others that wanna be the "temp" ruler until she's cured. Monetarist vs GC leaders (since they know her plans/royalist will be pretty nice setup.
/fantheory -
02-16-2015, 04:26 AMNalien
Just because there are (potential) plot holes in the game doesn't mean the developers should actively make some, much bigger ones at that. Having a NPC dead/etc. one cutscene only to have them enjoying a meal in the next is a massive plot hole. There are plenty of other things they can do instead, all of which are far more likely because the alternative just ends up creating a massive plot hole. Is Nanamo just unpopular or something? Some people seem really intent on her dying considering they're defending plot holes in order for it to be a possibility... Plot holes should be mistakes in storytelling, not an acceptable excuse for bad writing...
Would be much better if Nanamo has more balls than everyone gives her credit for and she ends up not only handing Teledji a new one, but also retaining leadership of Ul'dah. Then all they need to do is change her title in the Culinarian quest from Sultanate to Prime Minister or something (assuming Ul'dah even undergoes such a change). Far more manageable than either leaving a massive plot hole in the game, or doing a substantial rework of the quest. I would much rather see a character arc that takes Nanamo from timid little Sultanate to a serious leader than "LAWL LETS KILL OFF MORE CHARACTERS!". The former is what a good storyteller would do, the later is just a pale attempt at being dark/serious/edgy/whatever, made even worse by the plot holes it creates. I'd like to say I have faith is the developers not to do the later, but considering the last death we got was utterly absurd... -
02-16-2015, 04:49 AMFenral
Don't get me wrong, I love Nanamo, but after a point they are massively limiting the potential of the world to evolve if every single quest-chain, even in the Main Scenario, requires a return to the status-quo. The end of the 2.X scenario is supposed to be a world-altering disaster, albeit on a smaller scale than the Calamity. What you're suggesting is that world-altering disasters can't be allowed to alter the world. Maybe for now that's fine, but in one, two, three years? It'll get old pretty fast.
The same NPCs who could still show up elsewhere of course can't die, because then what would happen to ___, or ___? Any important new characters we meet also can't stick around, because then people would expect them to affect the world in some way, and they can't, because then what would happen to ___? We got hit pretty hard with two of the latter just this patch, and it's definitely a plot device that can lose it's edge pretty quickly. -
02-16-2015, 04:58 AMGilthas
They already have NPCs reacting differently to you depending on the point you are in the storyline. The issue is more redoing cutscenes. If they decided to kill off Merlwyb, they'd have to make alternate cutscenes for the final Armorer quest at least.
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02-16-2015, 05:11 AMNalienWhat world altering disasters? Even the Calamity was only really an Eorzean thing. There really aren't any world shattering events outside Garlemalds expansion in this game. The fate of Nanamo certainly isn't world altering...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
The end of 2.x is an Ishgardian-altering disaster, hence we get to visit the place after several long years of waiting. How is that maintaining the status-quo? I just look at Revanants Toll and I'm fairly happy with how the world evolves over time as it is. Characters can come and go following disasters, the only issue is making quests they appear in requirements. Can I see them making the Culinarian quest a requirement from the upcoming Main Scenario so they can kill Nanamo off in a sensible way? Not at all. Can I see them making Crystal Tower a requirement somewhere down the line to bring back Nero (Who, I should point out, broke his status-quo as Cids mindless rival) and perhaps G'raha Tia? Absolutely. Likewise, the Main Scenario cast, apart from a few exceptions (like Nanamo) could potentially be killed off. So far the only mistake SE has made in that regard (SPOILERS) is introducing and killing off a character practically in the same paragraph. Someone like Yda who, to my knowledge hasn't appeared in any side quests, could easily be killed off in part 2 without it creating any plot holes and with it having significant impact because she's actually been there since day 1.
I do find the idea that the only way to create impact and break up the status-quo is to kill off characters to be fairly silly though. Like I said, having someone go through a character arc is much better storytelling. The status-quo for part two would be Nanamo surviving and being exactly the same. It would be much better to have her survive and actually become a significant leader with an actual personality. That would break the status-quo without defaulting to a lazy attempt at building emotion with a death and without creating a needless plot hole.
All I'm suggesting is that they don't need to, nor should they, create a stupid plot hole. They can change the status-quo without doing so. -
02-16-2015, 05:41 AMFenralStar Wars: The Old Republic spoilers ahead
I use "world" in this sense to describe the game world, not the setting itself.
My point on Darth Malgus, which clearly nobody has looked up, is that he was the "leader" of the Imperial faction and the primary quest-giver for the Imperial-side Flashpoint storyline, but also the final boss of the post-game story, who's death had far-reaching consequences in the game's universe. You can still go back and get quests from him (over the phone), but there's an implicit understanding that it all takes place "before" you kill him.
What I'm trying to say is that [game] world-altering events can only alter so much if they are mandated to preserve the status-quo required for every little side-quest available. Why has nobody mentioned what would happen to the Paladin story if Ul'dah goes republic? I think BtF Part 2 is going to have fallout, and it will hopefully change how the game handles continuity.
I'm actually holding onto my last few CUL quests precisely for this reason. -
02-16-2015, 05:57 AMkyuven
If Ul'Dah does get changed into a republic, they could let the Sultana keep her title as an honorary one with no real power, just cultural significance, and have her actual position be akin to that of the Japanese Emperor or British monarch. This game IS Japanese, after all. What they're setting up to happen in Ul'Dah is setting the city-state up to have a nearly identical government to Japan's current one: A parliamentary democracy with a figure head cultural monarch that has no real power beyond cultural aspects and ceremony.
Doing so would maintain the status quo for quests involving "the sultana," "sultansworn," and "sultana nanamo" but change the status quo for the story itself. -
02-16-2015, 06:03 AMNalien
I'll be honest, I don't see why you're bringing up Old Republic... They decided to have a fairly large plot hole so XIV should have one as well, or that plot holes are OK because of that? No... I'd rather have better writing that ties everything up nicely, something that can easily be achieved here. The Culinarian quest can have a few lines changed to reflect any changes in Ul'dah, so can the Paladin questline.
Actually, killing Nanamo off for no reason would have more of an impact on the Paladin questline than not. There would be no Sultanate for the Sultansworn if she dies, why would you go become a Paladin after 2.5 when they'd be an order of knights who just failed their duty? If she lives, they can simply be an order of knights which will soon need to find new purpose following any changes in Ul'dah, they could still protect the last Sultanate though. "We were once the Sultansworn, but following plotplotplot we now protect plotplotplot", isn't really hard.
All sidequests mean is that they either have to make them a requirement, or they can't kill off various characters that appear in them without creating plot holes. They can still change things significantly with a few edits to quest dialog. They certainly could follow the Old Republics example and just give us plot hole after plot hole, but I'd rather they didn't. The status-quo can change without people dying and making side quests awkward... They didn't need to kill off Merlwyb to form the Crystal Braves and make the Armorer quest a massive plot hole, they don't need to kill off Nanamo to make Ul'dah a Republic. -
02-16-2015, 06:36 AMFenral
What I'm trying to say is that it's not really a "plot hole" at all the way BioWare chose to handle it, just a different fundamental understanding of "episodic" storytelling. I can't really explain it any better than I have, but it works much better than you might think.
As I see it, they've already written themselves into the trap by creating entirely too many details that fans see as "immutable" because of X quest or Y quest, and it's ultimately stifling the possible directions they can take the story in if the only options are "preserve" or "require." To me, there's a bunch of tension already lost when they try to set up something big if it can't be that big.
You certainly seem to think I'm in the "let's kill Nanamo" camp, but I'm not. I don't want anyone to die, but I also don't want the "major change" to Ul'dah to ultimately result in nothing more than a few tweaked lines of dialogue before and after, because then it's like nothing has really changed at all. -
02-16-2015, 07:50 AMNalien
What major change are you expecting exactly? Any change is going to be "important" to the Main Scenario and simply fixed in side quests with dialog tweaks. Just because the Culinarian quest has a simple fix for a major plot hole doesn't mean it's suddenly unimportant. If Ul'dah sees significant changes and the Main Scenario never touches on it again (how many quests have we had dedicated to the turmoil there currently?) then that is due to terrible writing, not because a side quest stifled the story... Why would you even expect to see the significant repercussions in a side quest anyway? The Culinarian quest, for example, is about Culinarian, not the reformation of Ul'dah. It is about cooking a meal to impress an important diplomat. That is its focus, after 2.5 and whatever happens in Ul'dah that focus should not change. If it makes mention of the changes (similar to 2.2 and the Ninja quests), then that is great for continuity and storytelling in general. If it doesn't it's an ugly plot hole. It in no way stifles the story though...
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02-16-2015, 08:27 AMFenral
I'm not trying to pick a fight, I promise, but I also think you don't really understand the point I'm trying to make.
I don't have any particular expectations right now, but I do want something to happen that makes me think "there's no way that really just happened." Going by your logic, the Nanamo assassination subplot really only has two possible outcomes that will satisfy the "status-quo" required for other quests. First is nobody (important) is harmed, yay good guys win. Second is Nanamo is unharmed but Raubahn dies, since he isn't yet flagged as "essential" by any other sub-quests. We have a subplot about Nanamo being in danger, but we already assume that she can't actually be in any danger, so there's no real tension.
I don't want the whole of continuity shattered forever, but I do want to see something, anything, that shatters preconceived notions of where they can take the ongoing story. Something we actually can't see coming. -
02-16-2015, 09:20 AMkyuvenYou're in luck, then. The devs want to redesign Ul'Dah so a major change may actually BE a major change. Ul'Dah might be the next Revenant's Toll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Remember during ARR's "lookie lookie" phase of development, they showed off Limsa and Gridania a lot, but didn't show a whole lot of Ul'Dah. -
02-17-2015, 04:01 AMTerin
As far as the thing with the Sultana goes, I hardly think the cooking quest is so completely integral to the game that it couldn't be changed. *IF* the want for her to die in the Story, I don't think it's some massive deal to change those couple of quests. It's more important that the overall Story remains interesting, and honestly, I feel like it's either her or Raubahn, and I feel like her death would have a much large impact. Not saying that *will* come to pass, but that I think it's very much on the table.
Good story-telling requires the characters we love come to harm sometimes. Otherwise, there's no suspense. -
02-17-2015, 04:10 AMmyahele
I'm guessing that the armed refugges and co will probably try to pull a coup in Ul'Dah at least. It's also very possible (hopefully not) that Ilberd is also working for the monetrists. after digging around it seems like Yuyuhase was a brass blade guard in 1.0, so he's also probaby corrupt.
Many key people are going to Ul'Dah: F'llamin and her 2 echo user body guards, Alphnaud and Ilberd, more. When you think about it the Crystal Braves are EVERYWHERE within the city states....its kinda off putting now that I think about it. Perfect for spies to trade info between city states and beyond. -
02-17-2015, 04:24 AMNalienThis is only an issue for us because we're over analyzing the story in a speculation thread. People who haven't touched Culinarian (or this topic) will not have made the connection that she appears in that questline and thus can still see her in danger. People who have done the Culinarian questline could have plum forgotten her involvement in it and be in the same boat. If you're going to speculate towards the story, you're going to remove some of the tension in the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Honestly, the fact that this is a MMO does more "harm" to the potential story than the Culinarian quest; We know for an outright fact that Ul'dah is basically going to return to the status-quo after these events. The Immortal Flames will still be there. Omega wont raze the city to the ground. The fact that the city is home to both a housing ward and Grand Company make it pretty much safe from any major change. Any changes will be relevant in cutscenes and perhaps a few choice pieces of dialog, but other than that, this is an MMO and Ul'dah is a starter city.
Plenty of novels build suspense without characters coming to any physical harm. There are still plenty of people who could die anyway, though I have no idea why anyone has to (other than perhaps Teledji) for Ul'dah to undergo any changes. There should be enough suspense and dramatic tension in part 2 when the Dragons start attacking Ishgard and we're powerless to do anything proper until Heavensward is out...Quote:
Originally Posted by Terin
Really doubt they'd even play another death so soon after the last one... They can still build suspense though, honestly just killing someone off is a fairly lazy way to build tension in the story; Look how well it worked in part 1... -
02-17-2015, 12:02 PMFenralI'm sorry if you thought I was targeting the Culinarian quest specifically, but I wasn't, and you seem to have just stated the point I was trying to explain the entire time. That's the only reason I brought up Malgus, honestly. Not to say "this was better" but that "this is possible." It was a bold rule to break, and they broke it. Old Republic already had an implicit "low level quests are always chronologically before higher level quests" style of storytelling, which is ultimately why it worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
This game's pattern, as I see it, seems to be "pre-50 quests are before the Praetorium." The only truly blatant offender so far is the Summoner questline, and not because of the pic I showed before, but because it doesn't have extra dialogue to account for player knowledge of the Ascians. It's not a "plot hole," but it does turn Y'mihtra into Captain Obvious.
To clear things up for people reading this and my prior posts: I'm not being a jerk, I'm playing the devil's advocate. -
02-24-2015, 11:02 AMTerin
Like I said, I don't WANT for ANYBODY to die. Yet, that's done SUCH a great job building tension in Ul'dah, I actually think it would be disappointing for everything to "go back to normal". I mean, sure, I know some people aren't crazy with the Lalafel dude as a main villain, but when viewed as a "side-villain", he's been phenomenal. A little bit cartoonishly-evil, I suppose, but I feel like his manipulating the Ala Mighan refugees has been really well done. Very much akin to "Dark Knight Rises", giving it a more politically-relevant edge.
Again, though, I just don't want everything to suddenly be hunky-dory. As high as they've raised the bar, I'd like there to be some real repercussions.