Current classes/jobs are too simple

Well, yes, it's a bit like juggling (skill rotations) and dancing (handling mechanics) at the same time, though I don't that's necessarily a bad thing. I think it's a bit strange that you would try and think of them as separate.

To make my own comparison; if you think about it, fighting games are similar in a way. The combos are essentially skill rotations: memorized and executed without really putting much thought into it. Of course, the dancing is very different between the two genres. Still I don't think you could really break fighting games down to doing combos on the training dummy and then playing rock-paper-scissors with the live opponent without losing something in the process.

I suppose this is all just to say that the combat is more than just the sum of its parts.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

"Opportunities" basically means you want optional mechanics. This...kinda already exists. For example, the rocks in Garuda HM are now considered "optional." The pillars in the Fenrir fight are technically optional, as you can survive without them.

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All optional mechanics are from overgeared faceroll battles. Unfortunately, all the current content have hard enrages that leave reduce the options to "Must do" or "Ignore" , rather than running out of resources or soft enrage

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

or stance dance manual micromanage scholar

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I already do this, and its probably the only job that I find somewhat fun.




About the difficulty stuff: it can be a new class/job and not a change to the current ones.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

No. not complete RNG for every attack, but add more than one attack pattern.

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Like I said, many bosses already do this, but they go a step forward and have the "randomness" on every pull rather than every instance. They just don't have MANY attack patterns, and most of them are reserved for EX primals and Coil.
And again, they TRIED having full RNG attack patterns, but even their testers had too much difficulty with them, so they yanked them from the "core" and made it into Savage Coil.
What you want is a fight to be completely different each time you zone in...which creates a problem: "Save scumming."
If one pattern is preferred over another, a team will exit and re-enter until they get the one that's easiest to deal with. Especially if they're as drastically different as you're implying you want them to be.
In the end, you'd just see forum posts complaining about how X version is impossible, Y version is too easy, and no one wants to do Z version because it's not Y version. If it's in the DF, people will complain about people bailing when Z pattern shows up and calling them pansies for not wanting "a challenge."

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Originally Posted by Zfz

There's absolutely no difference to the rotation of a Paladin whether in Sword Oath or Shield Oath. We have one and only one combo.

That said, the strength of the Paladin is in its simplicity. Anyone who wants a more "interesting" tank job should play WAR. It's just how the jobs are designed.

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Going sword oath at times gives one a lot more to think about, than hitting 1,2,3. And agreed on war xD

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Originally Posted by Neclinesh

If a tank ever did this while I am healing, especially a Warrior, I will cancel all casting, dismiss my fairy, and let him die just a little faster.

Me thinks you didn't exactly think through this comment entirely. :D

-Balls

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Why do you think tanks can pull 350-400 dps? They certainly don't do it in shield oath/defiance. And in the same parses, scholars can be seen to be still doing good dps. Seen a recent t10 parse with pld doing 400+, sch doing 400+ and war doing like 350. Sure it's probably the greatest example of overplay ever but there it is.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

DPS: MNK (positioning- dodge) > SMN (pay attention to DoT timers, egi managment, batlle res and mp) > DRG (alternate combos- dodge) > BRD (CD optimzation - songs at the righ time) > NIN (mundras are prolly the only thing- dodge easier than other melees cuz the extra speed) > BLM (simple rotation - pay attention to insta stuff)
)

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are you insane?
ninja easier than dragoon and bard? with al the trouble tie to the mudra? seriously? bard have no combo, no positioning.... what it's hard to play with bard?
and about the dragoon is always the same stuff, they have even take out the positioning from the combo... making far easier to play of all the melee class.

seriously dude you haven't play a loot ninja in high level dungeon for say this.

I'd say it's nin>bard>drg now. Dragoon is very very easy to play now. Mudra lag for Europeans makes it particularly hard to play nin too.

And I'd probably say BLM is hardest of all to pull peak dps on in movement heavy fights. My blm friend doing 510+ with 125 relic in t11 is insane...

More than during combat, I'd rather see more complexity outside of it through some job and skill customization and a deeper stat management.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

More than during combat, I'd rather see more complexity outside of it through some job and skill customization and a deeper stat management.

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I agree. I wanna see a spec system where one class/job can be more than one role in the game.

Who dind't want to dps as warrior or as a dark knight?

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Losses due to not knowing mechanics are annoying, but acceptable.
Losses due to RNG are infuriating.
There are already bosses that have RNG in their attack patterns. Such as t10's final phase. Or Savage t8.
The problem is you need to balance RNG usage with actual skill. If you use RNG for boss mechanics, there will end up being victories due to luck, not actual skill. Employing patterns means that the victories are legitimate. Thus, the RNG is never used more than between a set of mechanics tested to actually be doable. For example, target selection for t10's prey, Scylla's tethers, most of t9's mechanics, etc.

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Losses due to RNG may be frustrating, but the easy accessibility of instances in this game make it a pretty small issue. If a boss uses an OMGWTFBBQ devastating and resource-taxing move six times due to RNG when it generally only uses it twice on average, yeah, it's not fair - but you can be pretty confident that you can go right back in and the next time the fight will likely be more managable.

Eliminating RNG altogether, though... I've heard Titan Ex described as "Battletoads the MMO", and it is SO true. A scripted attack pattern that never changes or varies (with the minor exception that Landslides and Weights may target different individuals each time), very tight timing in order to avoid mechanics or die... Definitely reminiscent of that old Nintendo game. I'm not sure I'm comfortable equating the ability to memorize attack patterns with "legitimacy".

In my mind, the best kind of RNG is stuff where you never know what's coming, but can learn the proper way to respond to it when it happens. OMGWTFBBQ moves should not be PURE RNG, in that they can appear multiple times in a row, or unusually frequently or infrequently, but setting them up so you can't predict exactly when the boss is going to lay them down is fine.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I agree. I wanna see a spec system where one class/job can be more than one role in the game.

Who dind't want to dps as warrior or as a dark knight?

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Oh, my God, can you imagine the Duty Finder queues if this was possible?
Number of Warriors queued in Duty Finder: 96
Number of Warriors queued in Duty Finder as DPS: 92
Number of Warriors queued in Duty Finder as Tanks: 4
Wheeeeee!

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Like I said, many bosses already do this, but they go a step forward and have the "randomness" on every pull rather than every instance. They just don't have MANY attack patterns, and most of them are reserved for EX primals and Coil.
And again, they TRIED having full RNG attack patterns, but even their testers had too much difficulty with them, so they yanked them from the "core" and made it into Savage Coil.
What you want is a fight to be completely different each time you zone in...which creates a problem: "Save scumming."
If one pattern is preferred over another, a team will exit and re-enter until they get the one that's easiest to deal with. Especially if they're as drastically different as you're implying you want them to be.
In the end, you'd just see forum posts complaining about how X version is impossible, Y version is too easy, and no one wants to do Z version because it's not Y version. If it's in the DF, people will complain about people bailing when Z pattern shows up and calling them pansies for not wanting "a challenge."

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I think you are misunderstanding what i mean. Yes, the bosses will have at least two but should have three different versions that proc when you start the dungeon. its RNG only for which Boss attack pattern Procs when duty commences. So players won't know until they fight bosses. So yes, they can quit if they want. I'm not saying full RNG, just have it were when you join a duty, depending on which version of the boss you get, their order of attacks are just gonna be different.

I started playing rpgs when I was younger because of 4 reasons: Story, Depth, Variety and Gameplay. And right now, this game is lacking in these aspects.

Story is best part of this game, its getting there, but its entertaining.

Depth is not great. Yes people are going to say "theres tons of stuff to do in this game, what do you mean no depth?" Well, to me, depth isn't just "Let's add a bunch of stuff to game to keep people busy that really isn't relevant and doesn't take any brainpower, just endurance". Alot of the things in this game is just "Wash, rinse, repeat". And I mean most of this game. Fight same fights in same location in the same exact way dodging the same exact attacks at the same exact time in the same exact place using same exact rotation...blah blah blah, which takes me to variety.

Variety is missing in this game as well. You either raid/hardcore/elitist or are new/casual. There is nothing in-between. I can't put as much time in as others who are hardcore, but that doesn't mean I don't want a challenge or that i don't want to push myself far in this game. But Its very hard to do end game stuff when your you can't participate like the other raiders, but the previous content is too boring or easy. What about the people in the middle, who I think make up the majority of the community? There is no mid-tier in this game. That's a huge problem.

And Gamplay suffers because of the simplistic nature in which they built this game. For example, worrying that people are gonna quit because fight is too hard? Thats absurd. This day and age it seems like players want their games dumbed down because they want stuff handed to them. Everyone wants to feel like they can win whenever they want. Developers are having to make games that allow people to feel like they accomplished something instead of making people earn the accomplishment. Games were difficult when I was younger not just because they were difficult and hard, but because they forced you to think and approach things and solutions from different angles, trial and error and comprehension. Battles in this game fail at this because this game is just a memorization game that utilizes very little skill and critical thinking. Its either do rotation to fullest, or lose because of not meeting dps checks. SE needs to make the encounters and fights more meaningful, more complex. Its rather boring and requires no thought, just repetition and memorization... The difficulty in this game is trying to find people to party up with, trying to fight with someone who hasn't "memorized" fight, in waiting for fates to pop, in enduring long hours doing the same thing over and over again for little benefit. The difficulty in this game is not in personal skill, but in enduring the above. That's not good for a game. That doesn't show skill.

Sorry for rant. just was bothering me. lol

Related thread: Boss attack randomization
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-rotation-idea




There's the argument of difficulty with balancing, but with the current game it feels like to me that NIN Drg Mnk are all quite similar... They weren't very difficult to balance because mostly nothing new was added. All they had to do is modify the potencies and Tp costs. But they all feel the same to me after the novelty wears off, and they feel like a wasted effort.

The only difference in their off gcd abilities. A job with much more off Gcd abilities would feel different.

SCH feels different from whm, they have different playstyles yet they are both balanced as healers. Because they each have unique skills the other don't have, including gcd skills. Compared to the other classes where most of them have a 1-2-3 hit combo and a 4-5-6 hit combo...it's the same main dish with different sides which just isn't enough.