Gridania and "outsiders"

True, Duskwights and keepers do live and survive outside of Gridanian society and are openly discriminated against due to poaching, etc.

It's interesting that the Seekers evade the wrath of the Elementals pre-calamity, although I think for the most part Elementals will take out their fury on Gridanian citizens once they had enough unless reasoned with by a Padjal. Like a patient person who finally snaps and harms whoever are nearby -- often innocent people.

Like the Gelmorrans, the Seekers in 1.0, often called ____ Poacher, hid from the Greenwrath in the underground in open world dungeons like Tam-Tara Deepcroft and Mun-Tuy Cellars.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

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Just thought i should mention that it's also similar to pagan beliefs and not just eastern mythos.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

Like the Gelmorrans, the Seekers in 1.0, often called ____ Poacher, hid from the Greenwrath in the underground in open world dungeons like Tam-Tara Deepcroft and Mun-Tuy Cellars.

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Keepers. Seekers of the Sun don't tend to live in the Shroud.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

/sigh, this misunderstanding again...

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Really nice read, thankyas.

That is why Gridania has always been my favorite City state ever since I got chased, along with Yda ana Papa, by a Treant in 1.0 :D

I don't reacll any mention of "The Hedge" in 2.0 which was an intergral part of The Twelveswood. A form of defence used to protect the forest. So I assume with the weakening of the elementals following and because of the calamity that they aren't possibly strong enough to reconstruct the Hedge?

Gridanian's do have a symbiotic relationship with the Elementals.

When you think of it, with Gridanians as representatives of the Elementals the forest has it's own defence and diplomacy with other nations. If it weren't for Gridanians the forest will slowly lose ground as more and more people start hunting and logging. While strong, they aren't all-powerful.

Whose to say that Ul'dahs thaumaturge and alchemist can find a way to greatly weaken/poison the forest and thus elementals. With airships they can do air raids.

Without gridanians the forest is unclaimed territory, albeit with dangerous creatures inhabiting it.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Gridanian's do have a symbiotic relationship with the Elementals.

When you think of it, with Gridanians as representatives of the Elementals the forest has it's own defence and diplomacy with other nations. If it weren't for Gridanians the forest will slowly lose ground as more and more people start hunting and logging. While strong, they aren't all-powerful.

Whose to say that Ul'dahs thaumaturge and alchemist can find a way to greatly weaken/poison the forest and thus elementals. With airships they can do air raids.

Without gridanians the forest is unclaimed territory, albeit with dangerous creatures inhabiting it.

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Always seemed like a master-slave thing to me more than symbiotic. What I wanna know is what good the elementals do. I see almost nothing but harm from their influence. The worst being the demand that innocents die and Gridanians saying "Sorry, will of the elementals lol" (or lying and abusing the elementals as an excuse; I'm honestly not sure which disgusts me more). There's that ala mhigan guy and iirc there was mention of a child in Gridania proper in some npc bubble text with a similar deal. And they say the elementals were severely weakened but the Black Shroud looks just fine to me. Aside from the apparently burnt/exploded pretty bad West Shroud, the land is lush with plant and animal life still, and nowhere else in Eorzea is dependent on some insane appeasement policy to nature and La Noscea is absolutely thriving (as far as nature is concerned).

That's not to say the other city-states don't have their problems, but the average Ul'Dahn wouldn't dress up political corruption as a good thing.

@RyuRoots

Yeah, I agree. I forgot to mention in my post that Gridanian-Elemental relationship is closer to an abused wife/child type of relationship. In that as long as they don't make the Elementals (husband/dad) angry they benefit.

But in this case, since both pretty much benefit since this is the home of Gridanians and it's hard to leave

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

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As far as the Thaumaturge guild goes, it wouldn't be the 1st time Black Mages set the forest ablaze with their dark arts (In the war of the magi, if they invaded I'm quite certin they just burned the forest down rather than put up with the Elementals and their BS). And I personally don't see HOW the elementals hold any respect any more. Like Hydaelyn they are weakened to the point where it takes all their energy just to survive let alone stop any thing from attacking them. And since the Twelve's Wood seems to be recovering just fine (Albet slower) with out them what is the practical use for the Elementals now that they are no longer a dangerous threat? The poachers are no longer worried, Buscarion doesn't seem to care about "The Greenwrath", and heck we WoLs have killed 6 primals, two elder primals, 2 psudo-primals, The Ultima Weapon, and an Ascian at this point. Why do we or any one else need to worry about half dead forest pixies considering compared to Bahamut (Who is the reason they are almost dead) they're only a step above an over sized door mouse?

Literally the Gridanians are THE ONLY ONES that fear the Elementals. Seems to me like they're the ones getting shafted on that pact. The Elementals make all the rules, decide who lives and who dies, decide where you can and can't go, and what you can and can't eat or hunt, and they give absolutely nothing back. They clearly don't "Repair" the shroud because it's doing just fine with out them. At best they just speed it up and that could be more the Gridanians actually planting new trees and crap them selves. Almost seems like the Elementals have a Parasitic relationship with the Gridanians where the Gridanians do all the work and the Elementals get all the benefits.

When you think of it, most Ala Mhigan refugees are in Ul'dah, yet they border Gridania. It's pretty telling what Gridanians think of Ala Mhigans since the refugees have to travel from their homeland all the way to Ul'dah

It's a little more complex than that though - there is still a simmerng resentment towards Ala Mhigo in Gridania due to the Autumn War nearly a century previously, when Ala Mhigo actually invaded Gridania - naturally, Gridania didn't sit idly by and let the Black Shroud turn into a war zone. Thus, they allied with Ul'dah, Limsa Lominsa and, surprisingly, Ishgard, to drive out the Ala Mhigan forces.

Ever since, it seems Ala Mhigo has been regarded by Gridanians contemptuously in a kind of "serves you right" sort of attitude after Ala Mhigo's social unrest and eventual annexation by the Garlean Empire.

Not to mention, like everyone, anyone wishing to settle in the Black Shroud has to be approved of by the elementals first, something refugees usually regard as red tape designed simply to keep them from entering.

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Originally Posted by myahele

@RyuRoots

Yeah, I agree. I forgot to mention in my post that Gridanian-Elemental relationship is closer to an abused wife/child type of relationship. In that as long as they don't make the Elementals (husband/dad) angry they benefit.

But in this case, since both pretty much benefit since this is the home of Gridanians and it's hard to leave

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It's not abusive. The elementals need respect and respect the people in exchange. It's like nature itself, they are nature. If you go and disturb nature's balance, it will respond with catastrophes. It's far from abusive.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

It's not abusive. The elementals need respect and respect the people in exchange. It's like nature itself, they are nature. If you go and disturb nature's balance, it will respond with catastrophes. It's far from abusive.

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But Nature and The Elementals aren't the same thing. The Elementals are sentient, MORTAL, living beings just like those following them. So the only reason they have more respect is because, at one time, they were more powerful thus the parasitic relationship I mentioned. Well now they have no real power so who or what is to keep the gridanians from disobeying? Certainly not them when it's all they can do to stay alive.

The Primals are closer to being "The Will of Nature" than the Elementals are. To me the Elementals seem powerless compared to primals and even common voidsent.

Are you sure that's right? I'm pretty new to the lore but that doesn't sound right to me. Are you sure your not mixing up Elementals and Sprites? Everything I've seen in questing about the Elementals and Conjurers suggests they are intrinsic spirits of nature. In my questing, I've only seen them manifest once and that was as allies during a Conjurer quest.

As for power, didn't the Elementals trigger the end of one of the Astral Eras due to the abuse of magic during the war of the Magi and the damage it was inflicting on the land?

Regardless, I'd say a fairer description would be one of landlord and tenant. Those living in Twelveswood are living in the home of the Elementals. Add to that that said Landlord has been burned badly by the behaviour of previous tenants. Its hardly surprising that the Elementals have little tolerance.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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No the elementals are mortal as are the spirits, the elementals are just far more powerful. It's rare for elementals to manifest themselves at all since the Calamity occurred but prior to that they were all over the place and blasting pretty much who ever they damn well pleased into oblivion or having them devoured by beasts and monsters. The elementals CAN die, which it what has the Conjurors so concerned. As for the Sixth Umbral Era, That was caused by Amdapoor and The Proto-Beladians when their war, The War of the Magi, permanently disrupted the aetheric balance and caused flooding to most of Eorzea. It was the 6th Calamity that made the Elementals pissy to start with, thus the 1000 year exile of The Gelmorans beneath the Shroud so they could avoid the Elementals wrath. Then 100 years (Give or take) prior to the end of the 6th Astral Era, The Moogles helped The Gelmorans settle the Elementals' hissy fit so they could come above ground again.

This is far closer to an Abusive Spouse Relationship than a Land Lord-Tenant Relationship. And now that the Elementals don't have enough power to defend them selves any more it's degraded into a Parasitic Relationship the same way a Crippled Abuser is usually parasitic of their victim after the fear of abuse brain washes them into a Master-Slave relationship.

If the elementals can think (Which they obviously can) then they are by default capable of corruption and abuse of power. It wouldn't surprise me if the Elementals think that they're Gods. And my Gae Bolg Animus says they are not.

The 1.0 White Mage questline seems to indicate that it was Oha-Sok, the collective rage of the Elementals, who unleashed the floods that devastated Eorzea and the reason being the gross abuse of magic. Also what seems to anger the Elementals is the abuse of nature. Whatever they are they do seem intrinsically tied to the natural world. This story is full of shades of grey. Calling the Elementals abusive would be ignoring that the acts of man have harmed them. Lets face it. The natural world has taken one hell of a hammering in FF14 and the majority of it seems to be at the feet of playerable races even if not the particular groups our characters associate with. The Calamity was entirely the work of men.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The 1.0 White Mage questline seems to indicate that it was Oha-Sok, the collective rage of the Elementals, who unleashed the floods that devastated Eorzea and the reason being the gross abuse of magic. Also what seems to anger the Elementals is the abuse of nature. Whatever they are they do seem intrinsically tied to the natural world. This story is full of shades of grey. Calling the Elementals abusive would be ignoring that the acts of man have harmed them. Lets face it. The natural world has taken one hell of a hammering in FF14 and the majority of it seems to be at the feet of playerable races even if not the particular groups our characters associate with. The Calamity was entirely the work of men.

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"Shades of grey" sums it up well, there is some estabilished context/background to the whole Elemental affair.

Also, the issue of magic abuse is further elaborated upon in 2.x, as others on the forum have pointed out: Raya-O mentions it in no uncertain terms on the White Mage questline, all the while providing us with important clues about Amdapor's fate.

Haukke Manor was the place where the Elder Seed Seers and regular seed seer's lived. It was only abandoned since the people of gridania and the previous or was it current (?) Elder Seed Seer denounced the place as a place of needless extravagance at the expense of its citizens and abuse of power.

So it does seem likely that even seed seers can be prone to a bit of corruption so long as within the rules of the Elementals.

Whats funny is that Lady Haukke was a Duskwight and they HATE duskwights

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

... but that doesn't justify bigotry...

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It has to be understandable, not justifiable. There are things going on in all three cities that shouldn't be if the world were a perfect place. But if the world were a perfect place, we wouldn't have enough of a story going on there to make a game out of. Games (as well as novels, movies, and any other form of storytelling) tend to be set in places where things are not running well, because it's easier to create the sort of conflict there that's among the primary elements of a story.

With everything going on between them and the elementals, it's understandable that the Gridanians could become quite bigoted. It's not a good thing, but it is a believable thing.