Why did SE decide to make the three new classes not require base classes?

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Originally Posted by Meier

I really hope they do ditch classes. They are leftovers from 1.0 and were something Tanaka made. Now they serve no purpose.

In 1.0, we used to bring THM to Ifrit, and could trio gold key bosses on classes. Now..after level 30, they are 100% useless. To change the lore would be easy, they'd just have to change some of the text. Meh.

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No it would not. The base classes are far too ingrained into the setting to just "change some of the text." And I don't really see why the base classes are such an issue that they need to be outright removed. It is no different than the job promotion in the first Final Fantasy game.

Guys lets be Real here without classes in the game Jobs couldn't do any endgame stuff. Why, because all Jobs grow from classes. An lv 50 Bard is really just a Lv. 50 Archer with songs and a stat buff. Take away the Archers skills earned thru leveling Archer and Bard is All songs with maybe 1 or 2 attacks. Same for all the other jobs. The classes we have now must stay in the game. Now the Jobs we're getting can go classes(less) but All the other jobs must keep their class roots and lore. To do anything else would be pointless and worthless to do. Why throw away the story and lore of the game? I'm so tried of these post every day, its the some thing. Live with it the Devs do.

Personally I hate it, I loved the whole Class>Job idea.

It has more to do with their opinion of the general gaming population.
1) Most people have pea-brains - Can't comprehend more complex systems.
2) Most people are lazy - Won't level up other classes for abilities.

In 1.0, we had to level gathering and crafting to gain extra stats for combat classes. Makes very good common sense, but people bitched non-stop.
The RNG skillups didn't help though lol...

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Guys lets be Real here without classes in the game Jobs couldn't do any endgame stuff. Why, because all Jobs grow from classes. An lv 50 Bard is really just a Lv. 50 Archer with songs and a stat buff. Take away the Archers skills earned thru leveling Archer and Bard is All songs with maybe 1 or 2 attacks. Same for all the other jobs. The classes we have now must stay in the game. Now the Jobs we're getting can go classes(less) but All the other jobs must keep their class roots and lore. To do anything else would be pointless and worthless to do. Why throw away the story and lore of the game? I'm so tried of these post every day, its the some thing. Live with it the Devs do.

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You can absolutely change the current class/jobs into standalone jobs without blitzing the lore or current playstyle of the class/job. The only thing that changes is the presence of a soul gem. For example: You start off as a White Mage. You have the WHM symbol, the name, all the stuff. But you report to the Conjurer's guild. They refer to you as a Conjurer. You grow as a "Conjurer", and later when you start doing the White Mage quests, they're just telling you information as to why YOU'RE a White Mage. Nothing changes... Maybe they could edit a tiny bit of dialogue to make it fit better.

This isn't how I'd do it, personally. I feel there are far better options. But you seem to want things to go on not changing.

If I were to give my own opinions on how it would be changed... I would retool all the classes into their eventual jobs and remove the classes from the game as PLAYER CHOICES. NPC's would still exist as the classes, but the players, as the heroes, would have the "Rarer" jobs. I would absolutely separate SCH and SMN and make them a bit more unique. That's really the only CHANGE I'd make to the current jobs. All the other jobs would remain as they are now, they'd just be jobs from level 1 instead of classes. I would change the class quests to fit more in-line with the jobs. NPC's would say things like "Wow, you actually wield the power of White? I thought only Padjal could do that! Well, for your basic training, you'll be following the same path as most Conjurers, but you may find your powers expanding faster than your peers, to eclipse them totally by the end of your career."

It gives them more options to create a job. No cross class crap to think about. If anything, they can add more depth.

Personally I have no problem w/ it.

Um... lol all the classes are basically the jobs, that can cross class 5 more abilities instead of having the job abilities.

The ONLY classes that can be played differently than it's job counterpart is marauder which can be a pretty decent damage dealer and still be tanky(ish). And maybe archer since most bards don't play songs anyways.

I FOR ONE WELCOME THE CHANGE, NO MORE CLASSES. JUST JOBS.

With just jobs, they can focus on making them actually unique. I'm so glad they didn't go the two jobs per class route.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Um... lol all the classes are basically the jobs, that can cross class 5 more abilities instead of having the job abilities.

The ONLY classes that can be played differently than it's job counterpart is marauder which can be a pretty decent damage dealer and still be tanky(ish). And maybe archer since most bards don't play songs anyways.

I FOR ONE WELCOME THE CHANGE, NO MORE CLASSES. JUST JOBS.

With just jobs, they can focus on making them actually unique. I'm so glad they didn't go the two jobs per class route.

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I second this. classes would have been ok if they kept adding them, like rogue. But then, whats the point? I would rather have unique jobs than to have class. It can be more in depth. For ex. rogue. Instead of turning rogue into ninja, they could have just had rouge as its own job separate from ninja, like in FFXI. That way you get more specialized, unique skills and stats for rogue and the same for ninja, cause seriously, why would i want my ninja to mug people? and maybe rogue would have had different weapons than ninja, etc. like what they are doing with DRK. what would have happened if they branched DRK off of a class, like marauder or gladiator? what would be the weapon? because as is right now, when you go from class to job, weapon type stays the same. DRK with wands? DRK with sword and shield? DRK with axe?

for some insight on to how we got here:

1.0 was really bad and the armory system was one of the -very- few good things about the game. so we begged them to keep it for 2.0. we didn't really expect to end up in this scenario.


Oops.

edit: at least it does get people to try out classes they wouldn't normally try. it's how I ended up enjoying THM/Blm.

Because in all honesty, base classes are redundant. We didn't even have jobs when the game first came out, but they wanted traditional FF jobs but didn't want to remove the new classes. So we got stuck with this awkwardly planned system.

To be honest I've been a staunch activist for the removal of classes.

Once jobs were introduced classes have done nothing but hamper the development teams ability to be creative or innovative with the jobs themselves.

The classes are pointless artifacts in 2.0. If they've got the time someday and are bored, I wouldn't be sad if they reworked all the 1-30 class quests to be for the job instead, and got rid of classes completely.

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Originally Posted by Slick

I guess I just love the lore, and would hate to see that stripped from the game.

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Its not really stripping anything.

The Class to Job progression in Lore is the Adventurer rediscovering lost Magic/Skills.

Going forward, our Jobs are new to the world of Eorzea, so having a Job Crystal that whispers secrets of old techniques makes absolutely no sense, lore wise.
These aren't Jobs that existed in the distance past, So having no base class makes a lot of sense.
One could argue that the Classes are whats left of the Jobs as the more advanced techniques were lost to time.

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

WHM and THF were jobs. We just didn't have to unlock them like advanced jobs.

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in XI SE also called those jobs you unlocked "Extra Jobs" not "Advanced Jobs" the players were the ones that started to call them advanced jobs.
that one always bothered me because if they were infact advanced jobs they would have been more advanced versions of the existing jobs not totally something else.
in XI you have 22 jobs most if which have little to do with eachother and are unique.


in XIV we have
6 DoW classes that evolve into 6 DoM jobs
3 DoM classes that evolve into 4 DoM jobs

which means if we got rid of the classes we would end up with 10 DoW/DoM jobs + the 3 new ones.
some of you worry about lore. well I'm most confident they could make a whole new lore around it that would make it make sense

no I didnt forget the DoH/DoL classes, fairly confident not much needs to be done to those

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

no I didnt forget the DoH/DoL classes, fairly confident not much needs to be done to those

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They're mostly in a good spot, except for Fishing, which needs to be completely redone. lol

Lore doesn't need to be thrown out the window, but it can very easily evolve. Look at the difference between 1.0 and 2.0. Back in 1.0, everyone and their freakin' dog had the Echo. Every player, and every players path companions, even all of the NPC's involved in Minfilia's group had access to this power. Now, suddenly, in 2.0, the Echo is a rare power gifted only to those who are chosen by Hydaelyn as champions or saviors, or... something. Similarly, the awakening of the Keeper of the Lake could send Aetherial shockwaves, stirring powers in adventurers across the realms! This could explain why we see a bunch of DRG's in the cinematic when there's only supposed to be one at a time.

why are people assuming that the cross class skills system will not be here for the new jobs ?

currently, jobs don't have cross skills because the only "job" skills are quest skills, which can't be "cross classed".

but if the start as jobs at level 1, they won't have only quest jobs, so they will be able to "cross class".

Also, the whole "class/job" is just semantics. "jobs" are advanced "classes". Or rather, "classes" are for levelling while "jobs" are for end game, which is why the new "jobs" are called "jobs", they'll have a use at end game.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

When was the last time you used a Class?

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Theres usually few Marauders in Frontlines :P

As is base classes were from the ole 1.0 class system. Right now their only merit allows players to be extremely diverse in additional spells and abilities for the sake of soloing, which also was an ole design from the 1.0 era. Yoshi-p has expressed trying to do away with as much of the ole 1.0 systems as possible.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Because in all honesty, base classes are redundant. We didn't even have jobs when the game first came out, but they wanted traditional FF jobs but didn't want to remove the new classes. So we got stuck with this awkwardly planned system.

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It is because FF XI players complained that the classes were not like the FF XI jobs and that they want the classic FF jobs they knew from XI in XIV.

In old 1.0 classes worked more like weapon classes. You leveled a class to get better with the weapon and learn more weapon skills. Once learned you can use the skills with every other weapon (but weaker than with the origin weapon). Except the skills that were bought with Guild Marks in the guilds. The character had his own level with the physical level and stat points were earned with the physical level and not with the class rank.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

When was the last time you used a Class?

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10 minutes ago. The BTN.

I imagine it means that the new jobs will not have cross class skills at all.

So why so much Class Hate? Look,you EGs have Coils and Ex Pri. to yoursleves. I/us normal players may or may not care about EG stuff. I/we are not calling for the end of endgame. Why becasue I/we know some peope love it. I'd like to see All EG stuff scaled back and the Devs spend more time making stuff for EVERYONE. But,I know this will nvr happen,so I hold my say on it. So, Y do U EGs players want classes gone so much? U dont use them, so why do you care? Having classes in the game means having choices in the game. W/o classes you/I have no choice but to play a 1 dimension Job,which I think SUCKS. I hate Brd,and PLD, so I dont play them much but I do play Arh. and Gld while solo'ing all the time. Y take my choice away? I dont do EG, I dont care, I'll never join yr FCs,PFs or DFs groups. So leave classes alone. Don't make ME start a petiton to keep classes in the game! If u dont like classes just dont use them. Leave everyone elses choices and game alone,go clear coils or something

short answer -- new race, new town, new expansion starter area, needs new starter jobs that don't exist in the typical 3 Eorzea states.

long answer -- This is better for the game. Currently, queue times are horrifically skewed, the best thing this expansion can do currently is make Tank/Heals a more popular and populous path.


Also, Square never said Dark Knight / Astro / Gunner won't have class paths. They just said they're not classes, they're starter jobs.

Classes are a relic from 1.0 that serves no purpose and Yoshi P wants to remove everything from 1.0. Classes hold back on what developers can do with jobs because all the skills from classes go into making the job so really players are a lvl 50 class and not a level 50 job.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

short answer -- new race, new town, new expansion starter area, needs new starter jobs that don't exist in the typical 3 Eorzea states.

long answer -- This is better for the game. Currently, queue times are horrifically skewed, the best thing this expansion can do currently is make Tank/Heals a more popular and populous path.



Also, Square never said Dark Knight / Astro / Gunner won't have class paths. They just said they're not classes, they're starter jobs.

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SE stated the Dark Knight / Astrologian and Machinist won't have base classes because they limit the design of jobs and they have to design new classes for all three of them.

Its not better for the game to take classes out................just syaing

I am not a huge fan of them being removed.

But in their current form classes serve no purpose. Even at low levels Jobs > Classes so why even have classes.

They just need to revamp the cross class system as a whole it is great system that has no purpose anymore with the new game.

What I am worried about is classes are going to have no cross class in the future, and it will be Drk has only Drk, Machinist has only Mach abilities and so on which in my opinion is an awful path. Problem is it needs a complete rework from top to bottom which I am not expecting to see. As the game stands now classes are 100% pointless though and should be removed unless the devs are going to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

What I am worried about is classes are going to have no cross class in the future, and it will be Drk has only Drk, Machinist has only Mach abilities and so on which in my opinion is an awful path. Problem is it needs a complete rework from top to bottom which I am not expecting to see. As the game stands now classes are 100% pointless though and should be removed unless the devs are going to fix it.

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stop spreading misinformation thanks. No base class doesn't mean the cross skills system is going to waste with the new jobs. It just mean that it's a job directly (use in end game) without having the burden of a class (useless in end game).

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Its not better for the game to take classes out................just syaing

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That's your opinion. We've now heard it. Several times. Mostly in broken barely translatable English. It mostly sounds to me like you don't understand how the game works and you're fighting something that hasn't even been announced yet because you're afraid that the new system won't allow you to do whatever it is that you think you're doing. Change is good. The new system might be even better for you in the end. If it happens, it's going to happen. Starting a "Petition" thread is a great way for you to get ignored by the Devs. They don't even look at these. Just chill and accept the change IF IT EVEN HAPPENS.

So let me get this straight, classes don't get any specific skills that their one job cant already use, and not advancing to a job doesn't have any benefits, and the "cross-class skills" that i'm hearing about could still exist even if all the classes were jobs , it would just be "cross-job skills" i.e moot point. SO in my opinion, keep the classes we have, because I personally like basic noob->grows->can advance->becomes something similar but different for RP/lore reasons, then don't make anymore classes, because under the CURRENT SYSTEM, there is no reason to separate class \and job combat wise because they are basically the same thing and thus these new jobs can just do all the same skill progression and RP/lore stuff but just all in 1 job without having nitpick and rework all previous classes into their jobs and changing any relevant quests/dialogue/lore to make it seem like you were that job the whole time. Sounds like a good plan to me.

I thought it was weird to have a single class and job because that would imply that you pick one, then sprout into multiple jobs, I'm personally i'm ok with that system.
but in the this current system the point is to lvl, interact with the world and NPCs of your archetype and if you want something different, you pick a new archetype

personally I would make it so a job 1-60s but you have access to multiple skills which all don't need to be used, rather can't be, and this would differentiate your character between others of your job in interesting ways, maybe even break the trinity and let you be any role, the job just plays that role differently than any other job with differences in balance and stats. I appreciate I can level any weapon style I want anytime but Id rather be any trinity type I want in the style I like, though that might be too greedy.

I don't know how these new jobs are, or if they will be standard, but they seem alright without removing classes. wait and see.

I really wish they would have removed classes from the game completely when they had the chance during the 1.0-2.0 transition. It just makes the game needlessly complicated and difficult to play and adjust to the real job and skill set you're expected to actually play with. It's just awful game design and waste of resources to create and balance something no one wants to play nor does play.
I'm really glad to see the new jobs will not involve this nonsense.

But I use my arcanist when doing dailies cause I love my carbuncle. Please don't take that away from me. :(

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Originally Posted by Genz

To be more accurate, the armoury system was dumbed down back in version 1.20-1.21. It just took the devs 2 years to fully understand their own doing and remove what had become useless.

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Now they better remove classes for every job, to keep things simple. Imagine describing the game system to a new player :
"There are 9 classes, and you get a job when they reach lvl 30, which is essentially the same as the class for most of them, and there is one class which gives two jobs, and you also have 3 jobs that start right at level 1 without class."
... when we could just have :
"There are 13 jobs."

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More that Likely the Classes will be, like some other people have stated in this thread, the Starting Classes, and respectivly Starting Jobs.

As the betting man that I am, I have a strong feeling that the New Jobs that don't have Base Classes (Lets call them Advanced Jobs) will not start at Level one, and infact will start at level 30 or maybe even Higher, and will require you to have atleast one Base Class leveled to 30 to unlock it.

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Originally Posted by Valmar

More that Likely the Classes will be, like some other people have stated in this thread, the Starting Classes, and respectivly Starting Jobs.

As the betting man that I am, I have a strong feeling that the New Jobs that don't have Base Classes (Lets call them Advanced Jobs) will not start at Level one, and infact will start at level 30 or maybe even Higher, and will require you to have atleast one Base Class leveled to 30 to unlock it.

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no. Devs stated you'll be able to start fresh as a DRK when expansion comes.

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Originally Posted by magdahmhara

But I use my arcanist when doing dailies cause I love my carbuncle. Please don't take that away from me. :(

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One of the best arguments for Class removal is the fact that Arcanist is the only class that splits in to two jobs. This is problematic for a number of different reasons which have all been discussed at length in different threads, so I won't bother to detail it here. Changing all the classes into the jobs that they eventually become will mean that SCH and SMN will finally be their own standalone Jobs, meaning they won't be tragically tied together as they are now. The reason your Carbuncle goes away as a SMN is because of the way the Summon spell has to work between the two current Jobs tied to Arcanist, since a Scholar isn't really a Summoner, but an Arcanist actually is. By removing the Classes, Summoner should have more summoning options. The only thing I see happening here that you wouldn't like is either Carbuncle or Garuda being redesigned or removed (To be added again later), since they're pretty much the same pet.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

no. Devs stated you'll be able to start fresh as a DRK when expansion comes.

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So without having any classes leveled, IE; a brand new player, first day in the game, can pick Drk from Character Selection? what about MCH or AST?

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Originally Posted by Valmar

So without having any classes leveled, IE; a brand new player, first day in the game, can pick Drk from Character Selection? what about MCH or AST?

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no words on them but I would assume they'll be the same. and yes

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

no words on them but I would assume they'll be the same. and yes

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I wonder if they are gonna make it like rogue, where you had to have at least 1 class at lvl 10 before you could select rogue.

I've always been a proponent of keeping classes in as I appreciate the added flexibility of them (although the transition to 2.0 really nerfed the heck out of it from what I understand), but I also realize just how much of a... hindrance, I guess, that they are to progression in both a gameplay and lore sense. That being said, it really wouldn't be too hard to change the lore. That would, in my opinion, be by far the easiest thing to do if they removed classes. It's the change in the game system that would be exceptionally difficult to change. But looking at lore first...

Come 3.0, would it really be that hard to add in something along the lines of "After having granted certain adventurers Soul Crystals, we were able to find ways to return the lost arts of *insert job here* and they are now available to all to master." The 1-30 class quests can stay the same in storyline, and once completing the first level 30 quest you're told to go visit so-and-so as they're able to teach you a way to gain greater power, which is pretty much what happens anyway. Then, from 30-50 the job quests would change to be something else that fits more with the lore. Unfortunately, this would mean that the old quests could no longer be done, and people who are already at 50 couldn't see these new ones (unless, y'know, SE could have them make sense retroactively), but it's a give and take. The 50-60 quests would take this into account and maybe have the NPCs react to whether or not you reached 50 pre-Heavensward or post-Heavensward. Overall, it could be explained away easily how jobs are now available to all.

Then we have the change in the game system...oh boy. First off, to accommodate any changes in lore, the actual content of the quests from 30-50 would have to be changed, which means remaking around 50 quests from scratch. Second, changing the cross-class system into a cross-skill system would require a lot of recoding and rebalancing work that the dev-team may not have time for. It may actually be a bit more beneficial if that'd let them give us more options for bringing skills over to other classes, but when compared to the work it requires...I'd rather have new content, not remade content. Third, fixing gear so that it applies to jobs and not classes--more recoding of every single piece. Of course, we also have the ACN/SMN/SCH problem of how the heck that'd work, as some people don't want to lose their Carbuncles or Egis (I want to keep my Carbuncles, too, by the way), but also want to be able to separate their stats. Also, tying in with both lore and game systems, would they still require us to have a secondary job leveled to access the level 30+ quests? If not, I could see a bunch of WARs without Provoke because "lol I want to play WAR not PLD" or a bunch of SCHs without Stoneskin or even Protect. If so, players would be complaining about how other players aren't coming into dungeons or trials prepared because SE didn't require them to experience other classes and gain abilities from them.

Feel free to correct me if I'm making too big a deal of something, am missing something, or have misrepresented something--I'm certainly not a game developer or programmer in any capacity, but these just some things that came to mind reading through this topic. Sorry for the wall of text, but once I started I just couldn't stop, heh.