A Use for Classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop81

So you consider all the old FF games boring? Half the time there isn't even positioning.

---

Because the most FF games had a 2D battle screen (enemies left, party right).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacost

(..) where you need to prepare in advance for specific fights I question your looking in FF at all, because that's never really been necessary except 2 cases in III that I recall. (..)

---

And now i question if you have played all Final Fantasy games, because what you said is not true.
For sidenote: There are a lot more than just FFI to FFXV with the numbers...
I like the JP only games, but hard to get them...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

so I might as well keep the few cross class slots open for things like the Truth of X skills.

---

...

Why do people always think that if Classes were change as I suggested, things like the number of skill slot will stay exactly the same or that they can't easy swap skills.

Quote:

---

My current issue with your plan is that what skill you say (knowing the fight and planning your skills to suit it) will only really apply to the first few people to come across the fight as any given class ... just ending with industrialized laziness. My FC grinds me up so I get the skills, tells me which to set where for what fight, and then I'm basically walking around as a fancy beat stick.

---

Might as well remove all boss mechanics then ... after all players will just read a guide. >.>

Heck, just remove gear as well, after all your FC will lazily grind it for you anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anatha

If you can't dodge, quit. This is not the game for you.

---

You really want to play this game?

With fans like you who needs competitors. :rolleyes:

Go ahead, tell everyone who disagree with you to shut up and quit. It worked so well for the forum "White Knights" of Wildstar.

In the words of Yoshi-P himself,

http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/...03/photo32.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacost

You think that's the more interesting question? You really think that you looking for something in the wrong genre is less unusual than the rest of us taking the game for what it is? If you want a game where you need to prepare in advance for specific fights I question your looking in FF at all, because that's never really been necessary except 2 cases in III that I recall. (Seriously, FF as a whole is quite easy aside from superbosses and this game is no exception; perhaps Shin Megami Tensei would be better for you? Unlike SE, Atlus doesn't go easy on you.)

---

You still haven't give a reason why it wouldn't work.

It's just an option for people with bad ping. If you think it's too hard, just equip a Job Stone and you can pewpew like you do now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

And now i question if you have played all Final Fantasy games, because what you said is not true.
For sidenote: There are a lot more than just FFI to FFXV with the numbers...
I like the JP only games, but hard to get them...

---

Beyond the main series my experience is sadly limited, yes. Still, he was specifically talking about "old-school" FFs, and SE (SS back then) didn't really do spinoffs in those days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop81

Why do people always think that if Classes were change as I suggested, things like the number of skill slot will stay exactly the same or that they can't easy swap skills.

Might as well remove all boss mechanics then ... after all players will just read a guide. >.>

---

To the first point, that wasn't me arguing with your proposed mechanics change, it was me commenting on my already making use of classes anyways. It was mostly an aside.

To the second, you don't see a gulf of any kind between knowing the mechanics of a boss fight and doing said mechanics, versus knowing what skills are necessary for a boss and slotting the skills in your character sheet? Learning the mechanics for a boss takes skill. Performing the mechanics for a boss takes skill. learning what skills to use takes skill. swapping which skills you want in your character really can't be considered skilful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacost

Beyond the main series my experience is sadly limited, yes. Still, he was specifically talking about "old-school" FFs, and SE (SS back then) didn't really do spinoffs in those days.

---

Just alone the release dates of FFI:

1987
1990
1989
1994
2000
2002
2003
2004
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2012
2013
2014

Those all are FFI, you can say with each new console or platform they made something new with some changes, mostly just graphic changes,...
You really need the Data from other Numbers too? They did not do that only with FFI... and some gotten Spinoffs or Sequels...
Have you tryed to play FFI on android? If so, have a look at combat system :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

...

---

All of the talk of "skill" is moot when your latency does not allow you to react in time.

"Twitch based" gameplay isn't the only kind of gameplay.

RPGs traditionally aren't "reaction dependent".[1] Building your character, deciding a loadout and your choice of skill use in combat is what it's about.

While with MMOs some kind to time pressure is required to get player moving along, it's really more of a necessary evil than a feature.

All I'm asking for is an alternative gameplay option for players with high ping instead of just excluding them.[2]



[1] Yes, I know about the ATB in old Squaresoft games, but even then they almost always give you the option to turn it off.

[2] Countless times my FC needs warm bodies for Coil farming, I have the gear for it (courtesy of the nice ladies in Revenant Toll :p) but in good conscience I have to decline when invited, for I will be more of a burden than of any help.

Edit:

The cynical part of me is beginning to suspect that certain players are opposing this because it threatens their "special snowflake" position in the game - when really the only thing special about them is their connection's routing between their computer and SE servers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

snip

---

It's more than just graphics. Aside from bugfixes, the magic system was changed to use modern MP instead of a DnD-esque "spell charge" system, and the difficulty was toned down. The original version was genuinely harder than the modern version.

Actually your proposed changes would help me greatly. I personally have significant trouble keeping up with more hectic battles since I can't concentrate, regardless of my lack of latency. If I could "90% percent of the battle is prep" as I understand your argument to be, it would play much more significantly to my personal abilities, being much better at golf and curling than I am football or baseball (your proposal not being dissimilar to golf. You need to read the feild and the atmosphere and see which tool is right for the job.) And I'll give you the benefit of the dlubt that you only mean aoe mechanics can be ignored not mechanics in general. If you fail to destroy the nails, you still die to Ifrit.

However, I don't see your plan being actionable. The enemies would need to give the jobs plenty of things to dodge and the classes their own things to do so the fight isn't a forgone conclusion once they allocate the stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

And I'll give you the benefit of the dlubt that you only mean aoe mechanics can be ignored not mechanics in general. If you fail to destroy the nails, you still die to Ifrit.

However, I don't see your plan being actionable. The enemies would need to give the jobs plenty of things to dodge and the classes their own things to do so the fight isn't a forgone conclusion once they allocate the stats.

---

Any mechanic that can't be done with a high ping. Things like killing nails shouldn't be too big of an issue even if you have high ping.

Classes will be doing their own thing while Jobs are dodging.

For instance, hey could add a Class-only passive skill that makes one immune to knockbacks like landslide, but leaves a debuff that you will have to clear if you do get hit by a knockback. The method of clearing can be anything, as long as it's not too costly in terms of DPS (there will be of course some cost), and isn't as timing sensitive as dodging - kind of the point.

Overall, it's just the trading of the dodging mechanic for some other mechanic.

Will it be easier on Classes? Maybe. But you do have to spend time and energy getting all the skills and gear - skills might interact with stats on gear.

Alll it would do is make Jobs unwanted and trivialize content.

The end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapphic

Alll it would do is make Jobs unwanted and trivialize content.

The end.

---

I see how you got such a high post count.

Sure is easy writing zero content posts that contribute nothing to the conversation.

As best I can tell, she was saying what I said about it leading to what I identified as industrialized laziness.

I suppose part of the issue would be optimization. People will ultimately go to whatever gets them the best results. The devs have a hard enough time balancing the jobs without almost doubling what they need to keep track of balance wise. If one class or job serves better at their designated role than it's equivalent, players and statics will turn to them. Your idea Isn't bad on it's own merits, I assume that your Proposed system would work well on it's own, without the Jobs and with bosses designed to best make the best of it. But as it stands, Either your classes would superceed the Jobs, You'bring them up to second class status, or it'd be a case of the fist option for some and the second for others

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

...

---

Anyway, in theory I don't see anything wrong with my suggestion. Of course implementation is another matter.

That said, the game will never be 100% balanced. This is reality. To demand perfect balance is to demand the impossible.

Classes right now are nigh useless. They aren't even "second class", they are "no class".

The reason I offered up "preparation" as a trade off for "not having to dodge" is because a good deal of raiders don't like to have to prep for a raid.

They don't want to stock up on potions. They don't want to craft dragon slaying weapons to kill a dragon. [1]

They just want to log in, raid, log out. FFXIV current design accommodates these types of players - ... talk about "industrialized laziness". :rolleyes:

If they can accommodate such players, I don't see why they can't accommodate players with high ping.

[1] Which if you think about it, RPing wise it makes no sense, since in just about every fantasy story the characters prepare for big battles - heck, the preparation might even be the story.

Originally i was searching for yoshi saying that classes are ment for solo players and jobs are for group players...
However, rereading some nostalgic old postings made my feelings twist...

@Yoshi-P: When did you lose your "vision"?

Quote:

---

Think of the satisfaction you get when taking out an enemy solo by a stroke of brilliance. Or the supreme exhilaration you feel when pwning entire hoards of foes by playing out your party role to perfection. Now, in contrast, imagine a person who, with only half his heart in the battle, struggles to dispatch the enemy. This kind of range in experience is what we’re aiming for with the reformed battle system—a system that rewards effort and innovation. Revisions to the Armoury System and battle algorithms will be spearheading the changes, along with the introduction of the job system. We’re pressing forward with changes catering to both solo and party play, so you can rest assured whatever your playing style.

---

Quote:

---

FINAL FANTASY XIV Balance Reforms

In order to keep up with the times and cater to changing lifestyles, large-scale MMORPGs such as FINAL FANTASY XIV need to offer a more casual playing experience than before. Mind you, that’s not to say that the entire game should be casual. Rather, there should be elements that can be enjoyed in a lighthearted way, for example, after coming home tired from work or school, with mobile phone or refreshing beverage in hand. To elaborate, content that can be enjoyed with little fuss, that doesn’t demand large time investments—up to an hour, say—or require a party to be formed.

But come weekend, players have the choice of undertaking more elaborate adventuring, forming parties with linkshell members and/or likeminded adventurers to accomplish mutual goals. Light parties can exploit the versatility offered by classes to conduct forays into beast tribe settlements, something that a lone adventurer would find grueling. Full parties, on the other hand, can immerse themselves in fine-tuning job configuration in preparation for their bid to obtain rare items in advanced battle content. Disciples of the Hand can outfit the battle-inclined with equipment boasting the requested attributes. And last but not least, Disciples of the Land can set about gathering ingredients based on current class and materia crafting demands.

We still have some ways to go, but FINAL FANTASY XIV will gradually shift from being a grind-centric game to one that offers enjoyment for all playing styles and circumstances with its ever-expanding variety of content.

---

Quote:

---

Providing Additional Paths for Player Progression

There's one key problem with the encounters available in 2.0: the limited number of options leads to linear progression for battle classes, and essentially leaves crafters and gathers by the wayside.

To be more specific, players are being pressured to join a party to play through a limited selection of instances for tomestones; there are few, if any, options for those who wish to collect them leisurely, efficiently, or even alone. Patch 2.1 will serve as a means to resolve this problem, giving players many more options to collect tomestones and play as they see fit.

---

There is a lot more and i would say that they are further away from the "vision" than ever before!
What happened with all the stuff Yoshi promised back in 1.xx?
Well, just my opinion, but after rereading that (not only those 3 above) i lost a tear of crushed hope...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop81

I see how you got such a high post count.

Sure is easy writing zero content posts that contribute nothing to the conversation.

---

I summed up in one sentance something you blindly ignore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop81

Anyway, in theory I don't see anything wrong with my suggestion. Of course implementation is another matter.

---

A DPS that can have 100% uptime on boss. Why would you take a job that has disconnects from avoiding mechanics?

Why take 2 tanks jobs to coil who have to handle mechanics and tank swap when you can take 1 class who is able to ignore mechanics?

There would be ZERO reason to take Jobs if your idea was implemented and due to being able to ignore mechanics, would trivialiaze every fight and content designers may as well make them a basic tank and spank with no mechanics which would be the only way to make Jobs worth a damn afterwards.

Other posters have pointed out various reasons why your idea is bad, yet you have no real counter except, "I think it would work". Protip: Theres a reason why it's never been done like that, it wont work.

Still don't think it would work in FF XIV, perhaps a different game designed from the ground up to cater to it, but I think after reading his explainations, ignore might be a poor choice of words on his part. rarher he should be saying "interact with the mechanics in a different way than dodging them. And he did conceed that in his proposed system, mechanics that aren't blink and you miss it would opperate the same way, Ifirit's nails, for example, and I'd argue the case for the duck and cover mechanics as well, like King Behemoth's fight where you need to hide behind the meteors, You're given plenty of warning there. Course, I'd rather not put words in his mouth, so feel free to correct me on that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

...

---

"interact with the mechanics in a different way than dodging them" is correct. You interact with them the "old way" via skill use (either pre-mechanic or post-mechanic[1]) and proper gear.

"Duck and cover" is doable 95% of the time for me. Most of the time there is enough leeway even for high ping players like myself. The one in Snowcloak though ... 50/50. Lunar Cry casts so fast!

All in all, if you are going to challenge players with "dodge this" type mechanics that require players react in a split second, it would be much appreciated if you gave an alternative way to deal with that mechanic for high ping players that simply can't react fast enough.

My solution was to use the "flexibility" of Classes and extend it further to provide the said "alternative way". To prevent complaints from Job users (apparently I have failed LOL), I figured extra preparation for Classes would be a good trade-off, in addition, to providing gameplay - effectively some of the in-combat gameplay is shifted to the preparation phase; like in old school RPGs that don't rely on reaction time.

[1] Many, many ways to do this,

• a passive immunity to the attack but you will get a debuff if hit that you will have to deal with post-attack
• a long duration stackable shield that blocks the attack, but you have to maintain it - you choice when you want to refresh it; you can risk it and hope the boss doesn't deplete it before you get another chance or you can play it safe but waste time and resources

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bishop81

Do you really think ACN won't get additional tools if this is implemented?

---

Answering a question with a question doesn't result in an answer.

Since you didn't answer, I'll list my conclusions and bow out:
* Allowing them to bypass mechanics is a horrible idea that will result in nobody ever running jobs again.
* There is no appeal to playing classes unless time is spent making them different enough from their jobs to be worth checking out.
* Likewise, there isn't a point to spending time developing classes when Yoshi-P can add more--and better--job options to the game.
* You're addressing a legitimate problem (high ping raiding) with a 'throw out the baby with the bathwater' solution (remove the dodging) when what really needs to be addressed is the core netcode.
* This will not add horizontal progression. You're grinding to acquire abilities and consumables (ergo, boosted stats or more skill options). That's as vertical as it gets.