Summoner needs a quick fix too

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Originally Posted by Ardan

There is already a thread on this and it was created yesterday in the DPS section. In fact, Akiza's post here is contradictory to what he wrote originally.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ummoner-and-MP

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Ooohhh snap

Being ignorant on T10+, and speaking specifically on my experience as a SMN only player who is on T9, I have to wonder what am I doing wrong that MP has never been an issue for me. Even on burst fights like T8, I have never had issues with mana, especially having the need to pop an emergency pot. My biggest issues with Mana come with Rezzing a down fighter. That being said, is the curve that much greater for T10?

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Originally Posted by Lycia

Being ignorant on T10+, and speaking specifically on my experience as a SMN only player who is on T9, I have to wonder what am I doing wrong that MP has never been an issue for me. Even on burst fights like T8, I have never had issues with mana, especially having the need to pop an emergency pot. My biggest issues with Mana come with Rezzing a down fighter. That being said, is the curve that much greater for T10?

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Your not dpsing right.

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

Wait, when did we not have some of the best dps when played correctly? *confused* I mean.. bad Summoners are bad Summoners. Bad tanks are bad tanks and bad healers are bad healers.

Summoners are kick ass dps, don't know what OP is smoking.

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Summoners have the best dps but at the cost of draining their mp and taking a massive hit to damage. If a Summoner is doing their optimal rotation they will run out of mp mid fight during coils.

Is the "Optimal" DPS, Ruin 2 while in melee range? If your burning all your Mana, then that rotation isn't truly "Optimal", because the goal should be to sustain damage for 10-12 minutes straight...not blow your load (Ewww sorry) in the first four minutes.

time to look at spell speed and dots. sharing gear that is obviously designed for a blm is frustrating

Anyone who says to not use ruin II doesn't know how to play the job clearly. In an optimal summoner rotation you're going to lose a lot of DPS if you aren't weaving in ruin II between GCDs and during dodge mechanics. Anyone who says BRD should just play ballad doesn't know what they're talking about either. A BRD is going to reduce his damage for 1 person? Yes it's true that healers need ballad too sometimes, but a SMN will probably run out of MP much sooner. Paeon is different as many DPS benefit from it. Having a BLM in place of a SMN means that a BRD can play foe's more often and only ballad when a healer needs it. I think a relatively simple bandaid fix would be to add additional piety to the summoner job crystal. Right now equipping a SMN job crystal adds +10 PIE. If they changed it by +20 or +30 more we would have a higher max MP, our aetherflow would restore more MP, and we would have a higher MP regeneration.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

How does this post have four up-votes ?

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Because it's true. DRG is long overdue for a much needed buff. Every other job is fine.

If bard sing, they lose like 20% of the dps during that time? If bard is doing 400 dps they lose around 80 dps in that time they are singing(i do not actually know how much they lose)? And if summoner lose 25 - 37 dps while using energy drain it is bigger lose singing ballad or using energy drain?

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

Because it's true. DRG is long overdue for a much needed buff. Every other job is fine.

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Except for the fact that SMN will never out dps a BLM on any content that matters unless your bard doesn't mind running ballad 2-3 times per fight.

I do not understand why there isn't more piety on the new gear. And yes, sharing gear that is obviously designed for blms is crap.

Combine fester and energy drain. Problem solved.

The Dps problem for Summoner started when they started sharing tome gear with the Black Mage which resulted in a silent nerf to Summoner.

I am quite an experienced Summoner while I main a Black Mage. It is sort of true though, the summoner is doing quite a bit less damage than a BLM. It should never to more than Black Mage just because it has Raise and good Virus and other utility. BLM isn't awful at utility though, but having Raise as a DPS class is just ... Still I agree that Summoner should do a bit more damage. Not a lot though.

one thing to keep in mind is that we hold dps to conserve mana yet still hit sufficient dps targets.

if anything, smn is at a disadvantage because we cannot exceed the dps requirements to the same degree as other jobs. thus, if a dps in the group is lagging behind, a smn does not have the mana to compensate for the lack of dps.

i believe the point of smn for this patch is to hit 400dps and be able to raise,virus, and e4e

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Originally Posted by ViviAnimus

It should never to more than Black Mage just because it has Raise and good Virus and other utility. BLM isn't awful at utility though, but having Raise as a DPS class is just ... Still I agree that Summoner should do a bit more damage. Not a lot though.

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Battle rez on a non healer class is obviously a very powerful utility ability, but enough to validate having lower DPS than the other DPS jobs? SCH has virus and should be the one using it during a fight to prevent damage. BLM also has access to eye for and eye, and a weaker form of virus. They also have apocotostasis which is a very powerful unique utility ability. NIN has an incredible amount of utility, TP regeneration for a party member, a stun, a silence, a vulnerability down debuff, and a slashing resistance down debuff. They're arguably TOP DPS class in the game. A job shouldn't be balanced around the ability to combat rez people. In ideal conditions, people shouldn't be dying anyways.

A easy fix would be to increase pet survivability and have them do more damage. Summoners would still run out but at least pets would cover for their loss, maybe pets can get temporary buff when you go below a % of your MP.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

A easy fix would be to increase pet survivability and have them do more damage. Summoners would still run out but at least pets would cover for their loss, maybe pets can get temporary buff when you go below a % of your MP.

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DPS loss is from having to alter rotation to do more Energy Drains to help maintain MP. Pet survivability is not the issue, having it deal more damage will not fix the issue of running out of MP which either. Black Mage, unless they mess up their rotation, does not run out of MP. Scholar, has both better native regen and Aetherflow because of higher MP. The pet is fine, and does not need changing as it's not a part of the MP issue.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

DPS loss is from having to alter rotation to do more Energy Drains to help maintain MP. Pet survivability is not the issue, having it deal more damage will not fix the issue of running out of MP which either. Black Mage, unless they mess up their rotation, does not run out of MP. Scholar, has both better native regen and Aetherflow because of higher MP. The pet is fine, and does not need changing as it's not a part of the MP issue.

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I was talking about increasing pet's capability so you wouldn't need to worry as much about MP because pet would get extra damage, however pets would probably be only attacking one target at a time and not be part of the rotation so my plan does have it flaws.Saying the pet can't possibly be part of the solution seems very short sighted. The pet is always out after all so when you run out of mp, as long as the pet is still out it doesn't cost anything if the pet plays an active role in helping you fulfill at least some of your damage needs while you hang back and regen mp.

There are probably better solutions to this problem i just thought even though pet wouldn't make up for all lost damage that it was something that fits into what already happens without players having to cast more spells and still get some damage back.

looks like there are way too less people that have seen a well played smn in here :x

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I was talking about increasing pet's capability so you wouldn't need to worry as much about MP because pet would get extra damage, however pets would probably be only attacking one target at a time and not be part of the rotation so my plan does have it flaws.Saying the pet can't possibly be part of the solution seems very short sighted. The pet is always out after all so when you run out of mp, as long as the pet is still out it doesn't cost anything if the pet plays an active role in helping you fulfill at least some of your damage needs while you hang back and regen mp.

There are probably better solutions to this problem i just thought even though pet wouldn't make up for all lost damage that it was something that fits into what already happens without players having to cast more spells and still get some damage back.

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This is about endgame raiding, most notably FCoB. There's no "set back, regen MP", only set out while BLM fills the role. Please stop injecting that you want Pets to be a bigger part of SMN damage into an issue that it's not even related to.

Absent any new gear sets specific to the Summoner increasing dps on pet is quick fix. The main problem is that the Summoner shares gear with the Black Mage which is mostly loaded with spell speed which lowers our dps. Black Mage has itemization options with tomes gear because the can fill in with tomes gear until they can upgrade to coils while the Summoner doesn't have fill in options like in 2.0

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Absent any new gear sets specific to the Summoner increasing dps on pet is quick fix. The main problem is that the Summoner shares gear with the Black Mage which is mostly loaded with spell speed which lowers our dps. Black Mage has itemization options with tomes gear because the can fill in with tomes gear until they can upgrade to coils while the Summoner doesn't have fill in options like in 2.0

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No Spell Speed does not lower your DPS on SMN, it just does not provide quite the DPS increase to SMN as it does to BLM. However what does actually lower DPS is having to use Energy Drain more and Ruin II less, to avoid flooring your MP. Increasing Pet damage does nothing for the MP issue.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

No Spell Speed does not lower your DPS on SMN, it just does not provide quite the DPS increase to SMN as it does to BLM. However what does actually lower DPS is having to use Energy Drain more and Ruin II less, to avoid flooring your MP. Increasing Pet damage does nothing for the MP issue.

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Spell Speed actually lowers DPS in long duration fights(Which are the fights that matters anyway). Since spell speed reduces GCD, that means that it will make you go OOM quicker which decreases your DPS.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Spell Speed actually lowers DPS in long duration fights(Which are the fights that matters anyway). Since spell speed reduces GCD, that means that it will make you go OOM quicker which decreases your DPS.

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So what is truely causing the DPS loss? The Spell Speed it's self, going OOM or having to alter your rotation to conserve MP?

Try this strip gear and Summoner rotation a Dummy. See if your MP lasts much longer. Yes, it's true Spell Speed with help you run out of MP, but not to a great extent. Resource Management is the real issue. If Summoner for example had the Piety of Scholar. A trait which increased Aetherflow's return for Summoner only, or if Spell Cost were reduced, the issue is largely solved.

SMN dps is great but you need SMNS who know how to use the class.

a half decent BLM will churn out decent numbers, doesnt really translate to SMN which requires pet management, etc

Why are Black Mages still crying for a buff.
Summoner's don't require pet management you just leave it out there and hit contagion when needed. Summoner requires carefully timed mega potion of intelligent and potent poisoning pots to be great on dps and with a controller it's difficult to do.

Summoner doesn't require skill it has one optimal rotation with upkeep for dots.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

SMN dps is great but you need SMNS who know how to use the class.

a half decent BLM will churn out decent numbers, doesnt really translate to SMN which requires pet management, etc

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Dragoons and Black Mages are still crying for buffs does that mean every Black Mage and Dragoons are bad.
The problem is there is a massive gap between great dps and dps that know the rotation well but there timing may be a little off because of Internet connection or controller.
Summoner has one optimal rotation and upkeep of dots. Pet management is non existent outside of Contagion and all that is required is using mega potion of intelligence and potent poisoning potions at the right time which is hard with a controller.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

...Summoner's don't require pet management you just leave it out there and hit contagion when needed...

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So you don't use Rouse, Spur, or Enkindle?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Why are Black Mages still crying for a buff.
Summoner's don't require pet management you just leave it out there and hit contagion when needed. Summoner requires carefully timed mega potion of intelligent and potent poisoning pots to be great on dps and with a controller it's difficult to do.

Summoner doesn't require skill it has one optimal rotation with upkeep for dots.

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if you can say that and actually believe it, then no, you are not a great, good or even average summoner.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Why are Black Mages still crying for a buff.
Summoner's don't require pet management you just leave it out there and hit contagion when needed. Summoner requires carefully timed mega potion of intelligent and potent poisoning pots to be great on dps and with a controller it's difficult to do.

Summoner doesn't require skill it has one optimal rotation with upkeep for dots.

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Consider a new profession, now.

stop with these stupid smn threads already? U are OK. It amazes me that there are more smn threads than drg threads, especially considering there are a lot more drgs than smns.

U guys have excellent 1v1 dps. The best dps against 2-4 mobs that aren't irrelevant and die in 1 second flat. A pet to help soak damage ( thermionic beam ) , the ability to res a party member, sure it's dps loss to do so, but it can and does prevent wipes.

Really, just stop.

Why compare to bard or BLM? Brd + smn = amazing. brd+smn+blm = super efficient usage of foe+ battlevoice. The only advantage blm has over smn is the aoe burst, u really confuse me there. Do you get jelly when u see BLMs flare mobs in loldungeons? Coz nobody cares about that...

My dream party setup would be brd,blm,smn,drg.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Consider a new profession, now.

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Unfortunately Akiza has the forum troll job perfected... Either way, as I said, we cannot jump to conclusions without seeing how they perform with better gear. Secondaries are not as vital as the main stat anyway... DPS loss this, DPS loss that... The only loss is not playing perfectly and not having your main stat capped.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

Unfortunately Akiza has the forum troll job perfected... Either way, as I said, we cannot jump to conclusions without seeing how they perform with better gear. Secondaries are not as vital as the main stat anyway... DPS loss this, DPS loss that... The only loss is not playing perfectly and not having your main stat capped.

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This mentality has lead many people to doing crappy damage on SMN.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

No Spell Speed does not lower your DPS on SMN, it just does not provide quite the DPS increase to SMN as it does to BLM. However what does actually lower DPS is having to use Energy Drain more and Ruin II less, to avoid flooring your MP. .

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Swapping out DET for SS, or forcing a SMN to choose between having ACC or DET, more so in this tome gearset is a HUGE loss of damage to the class. You have no idea how much DET adds to SMN. SS in general is not a good stat to have on this class for besides the fact you hit the floor harder on an already MP intensive class, it adds essentially nothing to the class that translates into better numbers.

That mentality has lead to crappy DPS? No. Hardly. After doing massive and extensive testing with my Monk, the damage differences are literally 1-3 DPS at most, and based on RNG. And if secondaries mattered so much, people would use nothing but i110 crafted for the best DPS they can push out... And the DPS loss from having a lower main stat is much worse than having 'sub par' secondaries.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

That mentality has lead to crappy DPS? No. Hardly. After doing massive and extensive testing with my Monk, the damage differences are literally 1-3 DPS at most, and based on RNG.

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On your Monk. SMN is not your Monk. Your main stat is more important on other classes PARTICULARLY MNK, DRG, BLM.

SMN is a different ball game and DET has a huge effect on the damage. In general, most of the "upgrades" in this gear season, are all actually nerfs to SMNs sans for probably 2-3 gears which are essentially direct upgrades with similar stats from previous available gear. It's truly a case of how can you progress while not killing your damage.

No, it really does not. The testing I did showed me that the damage difference between 270 det and 343 was literally 5-8 points off the minimum and maximum, and everyone claims Det is the end all be all for MNK due to auto attacks and the reduced delay between them. And that is merely BECAUSE DET is weighed in at 5.6-6 points of Det is equal to 1 STR, MND, INT or DEX. Main stats far outweigh secondaries.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

No, it really does not. The testing I did showed me that the damage difference between 270 det and 343 was literally 5-8 points off the minimum and maximum, and everyone claims Det is the end all be all for MNK due to auto attacks and the reduced delay between them. And that is merely BECAUSE DET is weighed in at 5.6-6 points of Det is equal to 1 STR, MND, INT or DEX. Main stats far outweigh secondaries.

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Once again, not the same thing on SMN. Why do you think so many SMNs hate the current gear set? Because the class depends quite heavily on it's secondary stat spread (Crit/Det) whereas other classes tend to focus more on their main stat as the fore bearer of their damage. If it was as simple as max int, get good damage on SMN, no single SMN would complain about the gear set at all. What works for BLMs / MNKs /DRGs, does not translate to the same thing for SMNs.

Again, you ignored my point I made, if secondaries are all you care for, just use crafted i110 and i90. See how you do against a SMN with full i130 in a few months... Now let us stop derailing this thread and agree to disagree, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

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Kinda arguing semantics now. If you honestly feel that sacrificing heavy amounts of your main stat can ever be overcome by simple DET, then you would be pretty oblivious. Or in your case, your either sacrificed a lot of Crit or STR to gain that DET bonus so your parser didn't accurately reflect perhaps cause you weren't critting as often? I sure hope you were about 515 or so on Monk in i110 cause that's where all the good monks who gear correctly were. Your main stat matters, but how much of a secondary especially DET for summoners you can gain per main stat of INT is a big determining factor of what you do gear wise, which you fail to understand.

Where do you think people who have downed T13 and such already with ONLY i110 and i90 accesories, getting all there damage from to conquer the DPS checks? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't from STR since they couldn't meld that in. Secondary stats matter more then most people give credit to especially on this forum. But this generally separates the good players from the bad ones.

But since we've determined you know very little how summoners work, how about we agree to disagree, shall we?

Well now you just took it a step too far. I know just how well secondaries work, but remember, we are on the 14 forums, so it is rare to see someone whom actually cares about secondaries... Considering everyone else shoots them down. Especially critical.