Stat Priority as a WHM.

MND is far more important than any secondary stat in this game. Unless you stack secondary stats to 600+ values then you won't really notice much difference, and an extra 20 points or whatever of crit from the i130 belt will not make much, if any, noticeable difference.

I use a pair of ironworks rings as opposed to ironworks/dreadwing for example, but that's due to the double whammy of the no Pie ontop of the DW ring being particularly bad vs the Ironworks which is particularly good.

However, I'm in the same boat as you for belts (T11 is a cruel mistress) and I went with the Ironworks, 3 mnd outweighs 9 det imo leaving the crit and extra point of pie as a little sweetener ontop <3

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Originally Posted by Laesha

Yeah, sufficient to say, I couldn't disagree more with Lyrica ^_^

especially the idea that 20-30 extra hp on a cure would save anyone. lol. Not a chance.

secondaries matter <-> that much for healing. That's just how the game is designed. I know theory crafters want it to be more complex. It just isn't.

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I'm not saying that 20-30 extra healing will save someone, it can save someone. Unlike spellspeed, no matter how much you stack, you can't squeeze in another spell so that's 0 extra healing within the same time frame. So yes, spell speed is still useless and garbage

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Well, here's a question guys.

For example. Is it worth ever going for the High Allagan gear, over the augmented Ironworks gear for the secondary stats?

Like, main culprit, Ironworks Belt VS High Allagan Belt. Piety + Crit VS Piety + Det.

Main thing I do, is never go for crit. I hate the mechanic on it and it provides little to nothing to a WHM at all. Apart from RNG.

Yet, is the MND lost from goign for the high allagan belt that big of a loss?

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9 determination has a bit less value than 3 mind. So on that, no, it's not worth it. Aside from trading in the 3 mind for 9 det, you're also losing out on: 3 vitality, 1 piety, 14 crit and a bit of defensive stats.

Thanks all!

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I'm not saying that 20-30 extra healing will save someone, it can save someone. Unlike spellspeed, no matter how much you stack, you can't squeeze in another spell so that's 0 extra healing within the same time frame. So yes, spell speed is still useless and garbage

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With this game being built around a base 2.5 second GCD and encounters being scripted accordingly, I don't see spell speed becoming less garbage for healers until they overhaul it to do something useful for Jobs besides BLM.

A dozen threads later and I still don't understand why any healer would consciously prioritize spell speed given the option.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

A dozen threads later and I still don't understand why any healer would consciously prioritize spell speed given the option.

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I think the reason is obvious, although I don't feel like making this sub-forum my enemy. :P

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Originally Posted by Raminax

I think the reason is obvious, although I don't feel like making this sub-forum my enemy. :P

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The problem is that marginally faster heals aren't very beneficial when you already know when the damage is coming.

And by marginal, we're talking about hundredths of a second shaved off of primary healing spells....

A big factor in this discussion that seems to be getting overlooked is that until FCOB, SS on healers simply didn't bring as much to the table as DET or arguably even Crit, whilst all 3 secondaries offered up a small boost in potential HPS, SS simply didn't offer any kind of efficiency gain whatsoever, if you weren't chain casting it was a completely dead stat whilst the cast time reduction was small enough that if you weren't going to land a heal in time in DET gear, you weren't going to land in SS gear either.

FCOB saw a greater reliance on raw damage throughput with far fewer gimmick one shot mechanics. Take T10's add phase for example, on my main (Focusing on PIE but with a boatload of unavoidable SS), I can hit PoM as the adds are due and stoneskin all DPS + both heals safely before the first Prey completely trivialising the double prey mechanic (The SCH just has to put up succor and is free to otherwise DPS at will). On my alt with comparatively bad gear (Lots of crit for whatever reason) I can't quite do the same with at least 1 person typically being unshielded as the first prey hits.

The second example is in T13, both earthshakers and the flatten>breath x3 attacks hit somewhat faster than our GCD allows us to cast (2 or so seconds). All this SS on my mains gear makes phase 4 earthshakers that little less nerve wracking compared to my alt.

My point? Whilst I'm never going to willingly stack SS if I have a PIE+DET alternative, it's not the trash stat it used to be pre 2.4, it does have a use now at least. Not into FCOB? Gear as you like, it really doesn't matter.

Even in FCOB I personally have no use for spell speed. The examples you mentioned before doesn't really elaborate the uses for spell speed, though.

For the T10 stoneskin example, that's 6 stoneskins maximum. If you know when the transition is, you could pre-stoneskin some people before electrocharge is even being cast and finish the rest while it's being cast, adds appear and perhaps even when Pray's going out. It's a simple matter of planning ahead. Or to be precise: 18 seconds before Prey goes off. It's already a good 8 seconds or so once electrocharge is being cast and the only person taking damage between wild charge and electrocharge would be a potential second crit rip on the tank.

So skipping two turns and going for the more "hardest" example would be T13. You mentioned earthshakers and flatten>breath. But how does spellspeed help here? There are roughly 2 seconds between each flarebreath and a bit more (3?) after a flatten. You'd need so much spell speed that your GCD is reduced by 0,50s at least. No amount of spell speed with the current gear will achieve that. Much like with the T10 example, it all comes down to planning. With proper planning, spell speed isn't going to contribute anything. BCOB, SCOB or FCOB.

Indeed, I doubt we will ever get enough SS to achieve a 2 second GCD. But you're either misinterpreting my point or you simply don't want to acknowledge it though. No secondary stat is going to make or break anything quite frankly, the bottom line is that I can play the same way regardless of if I'm on my main or alt despite the wildly different gear. My point is in a few situations SS simply gives you more wiggle room (at a rather handy time in the case of T13) for when things aren't quite following that perfect script that theorycrafters always seem to work with. SS isn't a strong stat even by WHM secondary standards, but it's a little harsh to call it a trash now. Combine it with PoM and it does actually have a fairly significant impact.

Worth prioritising over other stuff? No not really, but I'm not as annoyed about the abundance of it on my gear as I was initially.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Combine it with PoM and it does actually have a fairly significant impact.

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Just to clarify on this point a little more as I think it deserves a little more than a footnote.

On my main I pull just under 800HPS by spamming Cure, popping DS puts me at around 1000hps during that 15 second window, surprisingly (even to myself) PoM actually nets me a little more, falling a little shy of 1100HPS during the same 15 seconds. On my alt PoM comes out a lot worse barely hitting 900HPS, the reason? If I include the cures either side of the buff duration, I'm normally getting 8 casts in, with PoM on my main I'm landing 10.

In short, the SS laden gear this tier arguably makes PoM almost as potent a cooldown as DS.

Call me noob, but I don't heal a WHOLE lot, I main tank really, but wouldn't the hierarchy be

MND/DET/PIE/Spell Speed or Crit Rate?

With a sub PIE, you should be able to get a fairly high MP pool while still focusing on DET. Maybe I'm wrong, or just optimistic.

The problem with Piety is that, while having a buffer is nice, there's always the risk having too much of it. The other stats don't have that problem, unless there are hard caps on Critical/Determination/Spell Speed.

The common perception that "Awesome healers end the fight with full MP!" is codswallop, as MP left unused is essentially useless. :(

Pretty much spot on there.

Things get a little less clearcut with this tiers end game gear though as the healer stuff is particularly badly itemised, in 2.0 I was almost entirely MND/PIE/DET, in 2.2 I had to give up a couple of slots to SS/Crit but was still primarily DET, come FCOB det is pretty thin on the ground unless you are willing to sacrifice a huge chunk of PIE for Crit and SS. The WHM 'BiS' isn't anything like as clearcut as it was previously.

IMO, your suggestion makes the most sense for someone with FCOB on farm and a steady group to run stuff with. PIE only really shines during the learning process, I personally tend to stack it due to my love of random pugs and DF groups <3

Here's the thing with healing. Between crit, piety and spell speed (the usual three that are argued), they all have their own unique pros and cons. Having either of probably won't make a difference when it comes to clutch time and 2 people are left standing with the boss at 2%, you and the tank.

Crit:
- Decent chance of overhealing
- Better chance of crit healing on Cure II on low tank health right before (insert big hit/hits here).

Spell Speed:
- Faster MP drain
- Increased effective throughput. By effective I mean the ability to start a cure on another target earlier than others (as opposed to having it crit and potentially overheal)
- Lower GCD (600 SS drops GCD by .25, results in a 10% faster cast, 11 casts with 600 SS = 10 casts with 0 SS)
- The interesting thing: PoM doubles spell speed. With 1200 SS the GCD drops to 1.68, resulting in you casting 33% faster (1.68/2.5). Add in Selene for lols.

Piety
- Buffer MP, increases MP regen, allows for more heavy healing/spamming.
- This one's a balancing act. Too much effectively means lost stats, too little will kill your group (if you run out of MP).

Everyone will have their preferences, I don't believe it's entirely correct to decide if one secondary stat's better than the other.

Just want to add that SS get you about 0.1 cast speed (against a non SSbuild) and 0.3 on PoM. And unlike the other stats it doesn't up your HoT(that's why i don't like it).
Crit is cool but can scared your tank when you hit 7xxx on cure2.

As it currently stands, the amount of stats we get on our gear, plus the current value of the stats (i.e. needing 100 spell speed for each ~0.09 reduction in GCD/Cast), means that none of the stats are at a place where they are far and away above the others. Currently, your item level difference is all you generally have to worry about. What ever pieces you have will get the job done assuming you meet the item level and play well; you aren't going to see a drastic difference in your performance purely because of your stats.

There are so few sets of gear available at each item tier, that two healers of the same class, at the same item level, won't have much a difference in stat performance between the two of them because of limits of itemization.

I suspect however, that as we continue to go higher in actual level with releases of expansions, and item level increases through tiers, that the differences in the stats will become more pronounced. if for example, the value of each point of spell speed does not follow a drastic curve, then it will only get better as you can stack more of it. "Haste" stats are always very, very strong assuming you can stack enough of it to matter.

I expect that during the expansion, there will be a more noticeable difference in performance for healers wearing different pieces than currently exists.

Max Weapon Damage + Mind + VIT = Profit. However, If you have a choice between multiple options - probably best bet with current content is anything with piety and/or spell speed. While avoiding Crit.
If you really wanted to min max your group you could wiggle in max accuracy too, even if you only use aero1/2 and fluid aura its more of a benefit overall than the other bad stats.