Lockout Timer for Withdrawals is soo stupid

At this point I don't care what S-E adds or removes so long as it results in DmgAtton playing something that isn't this game.

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Originally Posted by DmgAtton

Sum up Pick which u want to work on one or the other not both noob

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This guy. Calls people noobs, yet can't string a simple sentence together and hasn't even cleared first coil.
Bit of pot calling the kettle black right there.

I think the 3 times before lockout is pretty well thought out. It leaves room for some mistakes but still makes one think bit ahead of time before queueing.

I never had actual problem or annoyances with DF system before the patch, but as I see many other has had issues with it so this lockout system is very welcome change.

And... even if you happen to fail the 3 times, it's only 30min ordinary penalty. I was prepared for something like instant ban until daily reset. :D

The only issue I have with the lockout system is when you are in a cutscene, and are unable to do anything but withdraw, unless the cutscene ends fast enough. I've been behind on my story missions so I've been catching up on them, and while doing so I like to sit in queue because they aren't exactly instant. But they have a habit of popping the immediate a cutscene starts that winds up lasting longer than a minute. This has happened 3 times, all separated by hours, yet even still, after the 3rd withdraw, I was locked out for 30 minutes.

That in itself is just stupid. I can understand the lockout system being made to prevent people from trolling queues by queuing multiple times without ever accepting in short bursts. However only 3 withdraws at any point throughout the day, after the 3rd, you will always get a lockout? What does this do exactly but act as an annoyance for people who are actually trying to queue legitly?

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Originally Posted by Lovescake

I was just in a pre-made and we queued up, someone withdrew to go to the bathroom, queued up again someone was on wrong class for atma, then queued again and someone withdrew by accident. now the WHOLE PARTY gets a 30m lockout time?

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ITS CALLED READY CHECK, USE IT.

...for the umpteenth time: it's called collective punishment. Yes, you have to think about others; no, your actions don't only affect your own self. It's an MMORPG, you share the world with actual flesh-and-blood people on the other ends of the line. It's always been like this, it just wasn't apparent because most people didn't give a damn and just did what they felt like doing. Caused a lot of issues, hence the system now.

Yes, there is ready check, please use it. On a more general level: there's communication, please use it. This is a social game, don't isolate yourself. And especially if you're going for something as a full premade party...how are you not aware whether your FC/LS mates, your friends are ready, to begin with? Don't you guys...you know, talk? Consider how much time you have, make sure you're the class/job you want to go as - how so many people fail something as simple as this three times, so quickly and so often, it's just beyond me.

And last but not least, why is everyone acting like 30 minutes makes the world end? It's typical DPS queue time (which might be even much longer, especially now with everyone ninja-ing). Besides, there are tons of other things to do in this game outside the DF as well.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

The only issue I have with the lockout system is when you are in a cutscene, and are unable to do anything but withdraw, unless the cutscene ends fast enough. I've been behind on my story missions so I've been catching up on them, and while doing so I like to sit in queue because they aren't exactly instant. But they have a habit of popping the immediate a cutscene starts that winds up lasting longer than a minute. This has happened 3 times, all separated by hours, yet even still, after the 3rd withdraw, I was locked out for 30 minutes.

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You were punished for lack of situational awareness and also causing 3, 7, or 23 other players to have a que failure. That is a risk everyone takes when doing story, levequests, fates, hunts and crafting. If you are worried about strike 3 don't start doing something else that takes time while in a que when you already have 2 strikes.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

One of the best things added, when DF pops I know it's 99% of the time going through instead of half a dozen or more withdraws before it does.

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Wierd that i havent really noticed any diffirence, it was not that common for me even before they added this feature unless you qued in CT/ST.

By the way cutscenes. 99% of them can be skipped, just press Esc. "You can watch it in the inn" - sounds familiar? At least story CSs don't require a party behind you to have the same atmosphere. (And I do hope some of those not wanting to let people enjoy the game in dungeons run into this at least once. Serves them right.)

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Originally Posted by Ditto

snip

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My advice is to not queue for anything when doing story missions. The CS are enjoyable (for me) and lengthy. If you are not the type of person who rushes through the MSQ you run the risk of missing the queue popping and eating penalty.

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Originally Posted by WizardShotTheFood

At this point I don't care what S-E adds or removes so long as it results in DmgAtton playing something that isn't this game.

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Just put him on ignore. I just wish the "ignore" function would also block other people quoting that person too....

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

...for the umpteenth time: it's called collective punishment.

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This is not kindergarten. There are better solutions to the queue withdrawl issue. This is poorly done.

last night we had someone d/c and since he went offline instead of hitting confirm one of the party members got the 30 minute lockout. tell me again why this system was necessary instead of people just dealing with the extra few minutes waiting on a non troll?

As a concerned tank, I would most definitely support the complete termination of the current lock out timer for withdrawals. Let the innocent be victims no longer.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

People fish specifically for 'in progress' duties? Why? What's the benefit?

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You really don't know why someone would do that? Joining an in progress party when they're at last boss means you only have to spend 5 min on that dungeon while still getting the daily tome bonus or the alexandrite map. Tanks usually do it all the time since it's instant for them. Queue, not in-progress, withdraw and repeat a few times till it's in progress or just try later.

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Originally Posted by Lovescake

I was just in a pre-made and we queued up, someone withdrew to go to the bathroom, queued up again someone was on wrong class for atma, then queued again and someone withdrew by accident. now the WHOLE PARTY gets a 30m lockout time?

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So...SE is to blame for your poor time management skills in the first scenario, your poor attention span in the second, and your poor motor skills in the third?

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

So...SE is to blame for your poor time management skills in the first scenario, your poor attention span in the second, and your poor motor skills in the third?

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SE is to blame for an overly harsh solution, yes.

It wasn't necessarily him, it was the people he partied with. Him getting penalized for their mistakes or carelessness is highly unnecessary. Groups don't have any motive to "fish" for anything. They can't join in progress.

No, but groups can still mess with people. Use the ready check feature or find something else to do for 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Gextiv

As a concerned tank, I would most definitely support the complete termination of the current lock out timer for withdrawals. Let the innocent be victims no longer forever.

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fixed it a bit
remove it and we would be back to 25 minute withdraw orgy before entering a DF content, added to the 30 minute queue time for Non-Tanks

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Originally Posted by Alaina

last night we had someone d/c and since he went offline instead of hitting confirm one of the party members got the 30 minute lockout. tell me again why this system was necessary instead of people just dealing with the extra few minutes waiting on a non troll?

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The only valid complaint about the lockout so far.

People saying we should just ready check or be cautious are missing the point. This system should work better so that we don't get punished for silly reasons. Being careful is a band aid. Not a solution. The ability to troll is too strong in this system.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

People saying we should just ready check or be cautious are missing the point. This system should work better so that we don't get punished for silly reasons. Being careful is a band aid. Not a solution. The ability to troll is too strong in this system.

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"Being careful" should be the standard operating procedures not an unusual occurrence. In progress fishing and trolling may not have been prevalent as people think, but queuing failures really were a problem. So many of those "silly reasons" caused other people problems. I once had a queu pop 4 times and fail 3 times because a different role (i.e. 1 tank, 1 dps and 1 healer) either withdrew or failed to push the button in time.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

People saying we should just ready check or be cautious are missing the point. This system should work better so that we don't get punished for silly reasons. Being careful is a band aid. Not a solution. The ability to troll is too strong in this system.

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Being considerate of others and how your actions may impact them isn't ever a band-aid.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

This is not kindergarten. There are better solutions to the queue withdrawl issue. This is poorly done.

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What are the better solutions, then?

Because right now, the only people being affected are griefers and people in parties that aren't using ready check.

I'm loving this feature. No more instant queues turning into a 20 min queue cause some asshat missed his queue.

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Originally Posted by Alaina

last night we had someone d/c and since he went offline instead of hitting confirm one of the party members got the 30 minute lockout. tell me again why this system was necessary instead of people just dealing with the extra few minutes waiting on a non troll?

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Cause the Troll/Griefer is the problem and ur group has to suffer to eliminate them

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Originally Posted by Alaina

last night we had someone d/c and since he went offline instead of hitting confirm one of the party members got the 30 minute lockout. tell me again why this system was necessary instead of people just dealing with the extra few minutes waiting on a non troll?

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So that's 1 of your 3 withdrawals. What about the other two?

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

No, but groups can still mess with people. Use the ready check feature or find something else to do for 30 minutes.

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They *COULD*, but I severely doubt very many actually did it, or would do it. They don't get to see those people who they're harassing, sounds like it would take a lot of *fun* out of the whole thing. Not to mention messing with people is harassment and if they can track trades for RMT sales, it should be painfully easy for SE to track groups "messing" with people, flag them for investigation have a GM take 5 seconds to look at their mass withdrawl behavior and put them in timeout. Would curb that sort of thing real fast.

Even if they couldn't be bothered to track the above and there really were legions of trolls who band together to grief people even though they have no idea who they're griefing, they could curb *that* sort of behavior by a much shorter timeout with a shorter 3 strikes reset.

This is a non issue.

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Originally Posted by Sassychan

I'm loving this feature. No more instant queues turning into a 20 min queue cause some asshat missed his queue.

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one person missing their queue did not turn an instant queue into 20 minutes. It was more than likely repetitive withdrawls by those in a solo queue fishing for in progress runs.

What they ought to do:

1) Only people who hit withdraw / people who don't hit accept in the 45 seconds should get a strike, not their entire party
2) When you're unable to queue for the DF because someone in the party is ineligible, it should broadcast who that person is so that they can be rooted out

Adding strikes to the entire party because of one person being a derp is just unnecessary, and sometimes, even with ready checks people will not always be there because of how long wait times can be. That doesn't mean they shouldn't receive strikes, it just means the whole party shouldn't receive strikes based on their derps.

While I agree adding the feature is good, I don't like that it applies to the full group.

Not rly sure why anyone thinks that's a progressive way to do things?

I mean now I don't bother with PF because someone may withdraw and use one of my strikes. This isn't rly a problem as I get in just as quick if I queue solo... Just stops me using PF.

I can see the argument if it was only one, but they are giving people THREE strikes. Is it really so hard to be more careful after you have two already?

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Originally Posted by Lovescake

Oh i know bout it

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...Then use it?

/thread

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Originally Posted by Parodine

What are the better solutions, then?

Because right now, the only people being affected are griefers and people in parties that aren't using ready check.

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The best solution is if a person withdraws from a queue, the queue does not break up the whole group and instead finds a replacement for those who timed out. Those who clicked "confirm" would not have to click it again, they would just stay with the confirmation window up. The game would only break up an existing group of people who already clicked "confirm" if it could not find an immediate replacement. Anyone who withdrew would store a list of groups they recently withdrew from and that person would not be added back into any of those same groups.

But that's more work, so it's better to identify where this was a problem. The only places I saw this were CT/ST, expert, and low level. A common theme between all 3 are that the rewards are heavily stacked at the end of the dungeon, this causes people to fish for in progress in those particular dungeons. There are a number of ways to deal with this sort of thing. One option is to just give them what they want and get them away from everyone else by adding in progress only. This way all the in progress fishers will be removed from your queues forever and will never effect you. There is concern that this would add to the queue times because all the tanks or healers would only queue for in progress. But if all the tanks and healers queue for in progress, then they're going to have to wait a long time because there's only so many in progress dungeons that will be available. They might as well just do the dungeon normally since it will be faster as they already have near instant queues. You'll also probably get more people participating due to the in progress option. Some people won't do certain content at all because the rewards are not worth the time invested (low level comes to mind), but you will likely get more tanks and healers looking for "easy" queues which will increase competition. The result is likely a negligible effect on queues in exchange for a flexible system that lets people do what they want.

You could also obscure the in progress value in the same way that CT/ST does by only displaying 0/1 no matter what the actual progress is. A problem that exists is it can be difficult to fill 0/3 in progress dungeons. You're risking joining in progress on a likely dysfunctional group that hasn't made any progress. Those fishing for in progress are looking for 2/3 or 1/3, this would prevent allowing the in progress fishers from being able to fish for those specific dungeons. This prevents that while helping 0/3 groups that need some help. If in progress only was added, I think this should also be added.

Or you could just not display the fact that a dungeon is in progress at all. Although, I would caution against this. Sometimes people will ask their FC/linkshell for help with an in progress dungeon. It's nice to be able to identify that the queue that pops up is actually in progress so you can help those who you want to help. I know some want to be able to invite friends directly to help in progress runs, but I think that's ripe for abuse (voting out your current dungeon group members because you want to invite your friends). So it's nice to have some way to link those who need help with those who want to help without the direct invite option, and I think this accomplishes that.

Even with the above you can still have people trolling the queue because they have nothing better to do. But a shorter withdraw penalty (5-15min) with a shorter reset period (1-3 hrs) would curb most trollish behavior. For the most dedicated trolls it should be easy for SE to identify people who are *constantly* withdrawing and have a GM check their behavior to put them in timeout. This is also a good idea even if you add some way of directly curbing the practice of fishing.

And lets face it, the primary offender here was CT/ST. While other categories can be subject to in progress fishing, the number of people in CT/ST can mean that players even withdrawing for "legitimate" reasons can cause a number of resets for some people. So it would be better to limit the existing 3/day > 30min penalty to just CT/ST to specifically target *that* problem. Someone who got a strike from going to the bathroom during a particularly lengthy guildhest queue (where the queue estimates are often innacurate) doesn't deserve the strike as much as someone who withdraws from an ST queue after a 30sec wait. The system and its punishments should reflect that, it currently doesn't.

Or just break up the penalty enforcement by category. Trials, 24 man raids, pvp, low/high/expert dungeons, that sort of thing. Again, it was particular categories that were problematic. Withdrawing from ST 3x within a day causes you to be locked out of ST/CT for 30min.

Finally, even WITH the current system, the group penalty should only be inflicted on the individual who withdraws. Group trolling is a made up issue. Punishing people to prevent a problem that doesn't exist is stupid. Ready checks only work when the queue starts. Sure everything works fine if the queue is instant after the ready check, but that's not always the case (had to wait 15min to help out someone do Ramuh HM for story with a partial group that had 2 tanks, for instance). Being punished for the mistakes of others is a bad idea that's only going to lead to more animosity between players and this game does NOT need that.

Just joined a trial duty in progress 0/1 and there was only 1 person left inside, so I leave.

Re-que duty, get 0/1 progress again, so I decline.

30 minute lockout.

LAME!

Moral of the story: no longer join duty in progress.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

So that's 1 of your 3 withdrawals. What about the other two?

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They mentioned that it was only 1 of the party members. I can definitely see with how many different parties some people are in with party finder that they can easily get 3 lockouts from randoms.

I had this issue the other day. I was ready for a dungeon, the person downstairs decided they wanted to start Netflix, which destroyed my ping, and the queue popped just as I 90k'ed. no one got locked out, but I felt horrible.

I was ready ofr the dungeon, but due to circumstances beyond my control, my internet connection wasn't. the penalty should have been applied to me, not my entire party.

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Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

I can see the argument if it was only one, but they are giving people THREE strikes. Is it really so hard to be more careful after you have two already?

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again, sometimes you have 3 withdrawls for different reasons, then you aren't the one who gives yourself your third. I would be pissed at this too.

If you need to go AFK for any reason and don't trust the party to do a ready check, switch to a DoH or DoL class, state what you need to do real quick, then go do it. Might not solve everything, but it will help protect innocents.

Duty Finder has no tracker icon or indicator showing the number of withdrawls? Do party-wide withdrawls count towards a single player? Do a single players previous withdrawls count toward the party they join?

It seems to me they went with the least intellegent fix on this issue. Did they consider triple withdrawing while in a party as an offense that can be reported?


Seems like a mess to me.

It should be adjusted but all and all I'm loving it. (anyone up for McD's)

Fine as it is
AFK miss it once: fine, it happens
AFK miss it twice: better be careful
AFK miss it three time: figure your life out

It could be fine-tuned, but I definitely love the fact that this was implemented. People barely ever withdraw anymore.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Fine as it is
AFK miss it once: fine, it happens
AFK miss it twice: better be careful
AFK miss it three time: figure your life out

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Very true.