Threads like this really make want to see how the FFXIV community would fare in the stock market, where prices can drastically change in a short time frame. If people are popping veins at this, I can only imagine how that would go.
Undercutting
Printable View
-
10-07-2014, 08:00 AMLyrinn
-
10-07-2014, 08:02 AMRichardButteCongratulations: you're an exception and not a rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYoung187
He's right: all of the people complaining about how broke they are are very likely the same people who don't have the patience to wait for things to sell for what they're ACTUALLY worth.
And sure, the gil supply remains constant, it's just that none of those people HAVE it. :P -
10-07-2014, 08:59 AMCYoung187Broke and those complaining about housing prices are much different things. If someone is broke it's because they are probably not even trying. People can be fools on the market board for many reasons. Some because they overprice everything, some because they underprice. They simply cannot read the market value of an item correctly. Saying undercutting is making people broke is a complete over-exaggeration. How many people really complain they are broke, I don't think I have ever heard that complaint? Gil rains from trees.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
-
10-07-2014, 09:06 AMTizzy_Tormentor
I undercut all the time, sometimes you need a quick buck, beat out competitors, so you settle for a cheaper price in order to increase the chance of a sale. Sometimes I just want crap out of my inventory so I sell it extremely cheap (did this a lot while scrounging up for a house with my friends)
I have watched bits of furniture like a hawk and have saved a lot of gil by people undercutting prices, so its not all bad. -
10-07-2014, 09:29 AMDefendPopPunkUmm...no. First of all, I wasn't talking about someone undercutting by 20%, I was talking about a larger amount than that. Like others said in this thread, there's a better way to go about undercutting that doesn't completely destroy the prices. Yeah, no one can tell you what price you can sell your items at, sure, but we can all still look at it with eyebrows raised. Second, that analogy fails. I'm sure the CEO at Wal-Mart doesn't just go "HMMM what's the other guy selling it for? 10 dollars? Alright, let's sell ours for 2 dollars." There's way more to it than that. If he told that to their shareholders I'm pretty sure that guy wouldn't have a job anymore. And that's not even taking into account those people that undercut prices at a loss compared to if they had just vendored the things. smhQuote:
Originally Posted by CYoung187
-
10-07-2014, 09:37 AMSqua11_LeonhartIf the mats are hard to get and they get less profit, obviously they get less money.Quote:
Because someone undercuts they have less money?
-
10-07-2014, 09:38 AMSqua11_LeonhartDon't compare stock to commodity, two very different markets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrinn
-
10-07-2014, 10:10 AMCYoung187A person making a huge undercut that gets bought does not completely destroy the prices. One outlier does not make a trend unless the other sellers make it so. If someone prices something that low his competition should be purchasing his product immediately. Instead of getting mad at the fool take it as a opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
Does anyone even care about those who sell things for less then vendor? If something is selling stuff for that cheap it is the items that nobody wants. That effects nobody. Just saying this is a very overblown "problem" -
10-07-2014, 10:15 AMMilesSaintboroguh
There should be more undercutting. That way I don't have to spend a lot!
-
10-07-2014, 10:18 AMjomoru
This thread is new and unique! I have never seen it before and am glad it was brought up!
-
10-07-2014, 10:22 AMSeiryuukishi
Selling items is more than supply and demand. More than marketing trends based on current and past behaviors. You have to realize that your consumers are human. That is to say today 80% may want to glamour their gear but next week they could care less for the rest of the games life time. The only things that are sure to sell on the market board unless crafters decide to level gathering classes is crystals in all forms. Even gear isn't a sure thing anymore as I am as certain as the sun rising every FC has at least one person with all crafting classes maxed leveled if not melded to the brim.
You cannot mistake wants and needs as being the same when it comes to marketing otherwise you'll be waiting on something that'll sit there for months. I need to eat. I need to sleep, etc. I want to play this game as much as I can but it will not pay my bills nor feed my family. In much the same way in this game people want to look great, they want their house to be the best. But will it make them better geared? Will their crafting classes be able to make 3 star items? Can they make the items or gather the items needed for their FC's goal furthering? Ifrit's Horn makes a nice piece of furniture to show off but it does nothing to further progression. Nor does it warrant a price tag of 900k much less 1 mil. Priorities always win out unless you have it to burn. That's how supply and demand really works. -
10-07-2014, 10:23 AMGiantbane
Think of the market board as just another form of PvP. Undercutting is a great way of encouraging your competition to either find another market or enjoy reduced profitability ;)
-
10-07-2014, 10:24 AMDefendPopPunkSarcasm is new and unique! I have never seen it before and am glad it was brought up!Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
Wow, no crap. That's exactly it. lol. This guy undercuts this guy and that guy undercuts that guy. It doesn't take much to understand how a cycle like that destroys prices. You make it sound like there are just two people selling at one time, the guy selling it at the sales history price and the guy undercutting it by 50%. Not the case most of the time. But those outliers reduce the price by a lot, and then get undercut by a few gil, then they undercut by another large amount, etc. Yeah I'm making exaggerations, assumptions, call it what you will, but you've done the same as well. The point is, there's almost never any reason to undercut by a vast amount, regardless of the "opportunity" it creates for other sellers. lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYoung187
-
10-07-2014, 10:37 AMGiantbaneIf the market is able to be collapsed so easily then it wasn't all that stable to begin with. The price was being artificially inflated by an unspoken agreement between sellers to not really compete on the price.Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
What you're trying to advocate is to have more people participate in noncompetitive selling practices in order to keep your own profits high. -
10-07-2014, 10:43 AMDefendPopPunkMy profits? You're assuming I sell anything lol. No, what I'm advocating is for people not undercutting by ridiculous amounts for no good reason other than "gotta sell NOW!" I couldn't care less about Gil on this game, I have more than I really even care to use. You don't need much. I just empathize with people like the OP that kind of scratch their head at this type of behavior. I don't think you need to undercut by a large amount to remain competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
-
10-07-2014, 10:50 AMGiantbaneFine, not you in particular, but for anyone really concerned that undercutting is "ruining the market" (like the OP), then there wasn't much of a market to begin with if it can be ruined so easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
-
10-07-2014, 10:57 AMCYoung187You keep trying to create scenarios where some undercutter ruins the market. If a market is going to drop that easily that is a supply/demand issue. What you describe is far from common occurance, and even the OP'S description is bland since we don't know the sale history.Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
I guess i should throw in some lol wow smh omg to try make everyone sound dumb also. -
10-07-2014, 11:01 AMDefendPopPunkOr try not to take it so personal, that might help. I'm not creating scenarios, mostly just speaking about what I've observed. Good for you that you haven't seen the same things, I guess? Yes we're all qualified economic advisors here so we're well versed on the concepts of supply and demand, but I always appreciate that one being brought up in threads like these. Once per page should do it. Oh...and lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYoung187
-
10-07-2014, 11:03 AMRichardButteThen no one should've been complaining about the cost of housing and yet they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by CYoung187
Realistically, no one can be sure of the reason, but I'm sure undercutting by 80% isn't helping.
Let me put this another way: selling it 80% cheaper doesn't magically mean there's 80% more demand, and it certainly doesn't mean that you'll guarantee more of the market share because someone else is more likely to buy them all and resell them for the normal price.
Again, lowering prices does not magically increase demand in a closed system, which means people undercutting by this much are just screwing themselves out of profit as well as everyone else by driving prices down (though mostly themselves). -
10-07-2014, 11:16 AMKyri
Though undercutting can be a annoyance and greatly drop prices on things, most of the items currently going for ridiculous prices are severely overpriced vanity items. Horns should not be selling for so much and the price needs to be lower.. I feel your pain. Im trying to sell swimsuits after dropping a large quantity of gil on melds and fishing gear however I knew there was no way half a bikini was going to stay so high. Now, if we were talking about a item that put you on a close to BIS I could consider differently but for now the primal weapons are more vanity then anything and need to be lower.
Not only that but though horns are 1.2 on the board right now they were selling for 800-900k each so it's more selling the item at the normal price then the over inflated price currently being sought. -
10-07-2014, 11:20 AMRichardButte
For the record, there's nothing wrong with undercutting and I have no objection to it.
It's undercutting needlessly by ridiculous amounts that I hate. -
10-07-2014, 12:57 PMjomoruWhat? Either I'm serious and this thread is serving a point or if I'm sarcastic then this thread is a waste of time because we had the exact same thing last week.Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
-
10-07-2014, 01:29 PMDefendPopPunkIf you were serious then that would mean this thread is "new and unique," according to your original post, not "serving a point." Yet you just admitted it is the same as one last week. So then...it must be sarcastic? Aside from that, it didn't really add anything to the discussion, so it's kind of a borderline troll post. And you just came back solely to defend it for some reason. *shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
-
10-07-2014, 01:57 PMFyrebrand
What do you care, what other people sell their items for? If they prefer to sell their stuff quickly, and are willing to make less profit than they perhaps could have, that's their option. And if you think you can exercise enough patience to hold out for a better sell price, then by all means, list your item for what you think is fair. But from the sounds of it, you don't seem all that patient at all. You sound like an amateur who wants to play the market with a get-rich-quick scheme, but are getting frustrated that it isn't happening overnight.
As others have suggested, if you feel that someone is selling something for much less than it could have sold for, go ahead and buy it yourself. Then sell it for higher. If you can. -
10-07-2014, 02:00 PMStateAlchemist
It's a fact of life. People want instant gratification to the point that they will hurt themselves without even thinking about it just to get their money now, instead of waiting a few hours and getting 5x more.
-
10-07-2014, 03:24 PMScootaloo
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...stillalive.png
Seriously, undercutting is apart of any economy and business, real life businesses to it to each other all the time. -
10-07-2014, 03:52 PMAlexander_Dragonfang
Undercuting becomes a problem on slow selling high budget items. Where you can se usually a few listings like 2 or 3 and just a few more on history. Usually high end crafters on this case tends to match the price of the first seller, at least the ones with "etiquette" so the one who sells becomes completely random on about who is the buyer gonna pick since they are all at the same price. Problem with undercut is:
1.- Player new to the market gets into it and forces a crash from lets say, 5.000.000 to 2.000.000. Of course you could "flip" it, but on slow items that flip could give you rewards a few weeks later.
2.- Player new to the market sells the item cheaper than the materials. Let say an ifrit i95 weapon cost 2.000.000 millions to make, rounding the ifrit horn to 1 mill, the BCIII to 1 mill and giving away the other materials. New player puts the ifrit weapon at 1.700.000.
The reasons for the second one are usually the wrong thought of "if i got it myself (retainer, drop, gathering) so is free cause i didn`t invest any money and i can undercut as much as i want cause others spend money". Well, no, there isn`t such a thing as a "free" item on the economy, even if you didn`t spend a single gil on the items, they still have value, and use those materials to craft something is still an investment. And in both escenarios all players are losing money, cause the undercutter is getting less money than he could have by sticking to the average prices or by selling lower than the materials price, and the other players lose their chance to sell that item, which is a loss for everyone selling.
Now about the undercutting itself, is normal, yet it could be controled by a few market restrictions and options that are most needed, in fact the whole MB could use some serious enhancements beyond the listing and the interface.
-A limit on how much you could undercut someone, or at least, a warning before listing at +15% under the cheapest item that warns you are about to damage the market.
-A tool that allows MB players to know the average price of the items, so you don`t have people undercuting without proper information, history of sells just doesnt make it, in fact is natural to see jumps and drops of 500% on several items all over the place.
-Buy orders. Seriously. Players don`t have a way to know what players efectively want (demanding sucks, i play on cactuar, highly populated server and demanded items are so low, barely above 100... obviusly people doesnt care about demaning) and how much they are willing to pay.
That alone would stabilize the markets and stop the cobalt halberd at 6.000 gil, next day, 54.000 gil. And that repeats all over the place, and as time goes on, more and more players get to the 3 star markets and things just get worse and worse. The devaluation is normal, what is not normal is see how augmented saurian items for example, are being undercut even up to 2 times less than their actual material costs, which includes all the materials of the normal tabard, which is, just fun. The solution to undercutting is not just flipping. Undercutting is normal and a form of competition on properly regulated markets, on a absolutely free market with just a 5% fee for the gil sink, undercutting is actually hurting us all and in fact, making fair competition almost impossible.
You can`t regulate human "specialness", but you can regulate the markets. -
10-07-2014, 04:05 PMAzper
I love undercutting. Market Board Wars is the highlight of my day sometimes. :)
-
10-07-2014, 04:06 PMDashuto
It is quite possible I will be found out for posting this.
But I have made sure my retainers on my server can be recognized by sight, and are notorious. I do massive amounts of selling and repurchase through them, and I always use them to make a point.
Any time someone undercuts me, I undercut them very severely, and I am willing to crash/ruin the specific market we share just to teach them that lesson. I have even crashed a market because of people attempting to purchase from me and then resell with a price fix. I make them regret that thoroughly as well and sell at a loss.
It has taken almost a year, but now people seem to know who my retainers are, and they patiently wait their turn behind mine for its stuff to sell. This has paid off in the long run. There is occasionally an ignorant undercutter, and I quickly ruin their life unless it is not worth my time. This works out, as I like to diversify my options when possible, so I prefer to put a handful of items up in each market I'm working with and wake to them having all sold overnight. When I actually want profit, I avoid flooding and ruining.
I will not pretend I am a good person, but business is business, and I will be as ruthless as I need to be to come out on top. I find it a little entertaining maneuvering back and forth with people employing my same strategies. -
10-07-2014, 04:48 PMScootalooNo, your stupid. Undercutting is one thing but crashing an in game economy for the personal satisfaction of "Whoo! I taught them a lesson!" is down right borderline retardation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto
The only thing your doing is making sure the people who don't have the gil to buy items on your server suffer more than they already are because you wanna know what happens after a market crashes?
It inflates ten fold.
We're seen it happen everytime the stock market crashed in the real world.
Once the economy recovers from the crash, businesses jack up their prices in an effort to recover the profits lost, the result is the government being forced to print more money to counterbalance this inflation.
The difference between in game economies and real life is that no extra money can be put into circulation by SE. -
10-07-2014, 05:54 PMDefterosEwwwww.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
/10char -
10-07-2014, 06:18 PMMeiUshu
I do undercut because I judge the prices welllll overpriced, I also undercut when I see zillions of the same material selling at the same price and since I want to sell it I place the price a bit below, I generally I am not at a loss, all I would price is my time...material doesnt cost me anything or so little that by the price I sell is welll a profit, since I can craft basically everything myself. I am not sure why people consider their price a better price then this of other ?
If I want to undercut I undercut, if I dont want to undercut I dont undercut, if I want to over price I overprice, although it happens nearly never unless I have no reference price. Why to cry over virtual money ? why to be greedy ? silly at best...patience is a virtue, and if your stuff doesnt sell well dematerialise it...or dont build it or keep it, or even better, donate it (if possible).
Mei -
10-07-2014, 07:13 PMMoqiWe'd hurt ourself if we cared to make 5x more but we don't... not everyone is obsessed with being rich in a game. I undercut because I feel like it, I have enough money to buy everything I want and I don't really care to make more, so I will price things at whatever I feel like in that moment. Sometimes I put it at the same price as everyone else, sometimes I undercut by a gil, sometimes more. I just don't care. And it's getting to the point where I will undercut just to see these threads pop up because they are hilarious. More entertainment than any amount of gil could give me lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by StateAlchemist
-
10-07-2014, 08:15 PMDashutoYes, precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
And?
You should read my post more thoroughly, I benefit greatly from this instance, and I strike down others who attempt to do the same as me.
I'm honestly not so ruthless in anything else but the gil- if that means anything at all to you. -
10-07-2014, 08:24 PMmelflomil
I undercut all the time. Do I care what people think? Nope, not a f*** is given that day or any day. I especially undercut necessity gear if it is truly overpriced. Something like the nutkin I will post as the same price because I don't see it as a necessity :D.
-
10-07-2014, 09:35 PMShadray
I don't see a problem with under cutting.
It's been a part of mmos for years and it's not going to change. -
10-07-2014, 09:47 PMNoll
Gardening is a close market due to limited house available now.
I'm in the gardening market and I mainly sell two types of seed.
Of these, one had in my server a nominal price of around 120k per piece.
Being a close market, you wont see more than 4 or 5 seeds being sold per day. But the supply is also low. So there's big downtimes between a sold seed and not.
I usually undercut the last seed priced by 1 gil. This makes my seeds the first to buy before someone else undercuts me. Being a product that's sold by no more than 10 players you would imagine people understood that this is a good strategy, and that even if you undercut your seed a LOT you wont sell more than 4-5 per day.
Yet, there was a day where two or three of the sellers kept undercutting them by 5 to 10k each, without ANYONE buying the seeds. So they devalued their market for NO REASONS other than being stupid.
Now the value of the seeds is around 70k and it's still going down and down, 'cause yeah it's easier to undercut by 5k instead of 1 gil yeah? -
10-07-2014, 09:57 PMRazzle
Yes, all the undercutters are stupid for not being obssesed with a virtual currency in a video game.
/sarcasm
You know, some people just dont care? Its not like its real money. Personally im just looking to clear my inventory. And I think some prices are wayyyy overpriced. So yes im going to undercut. Call me stupid, but its the stupid who gets the money in the end XP (and a clean inventory :D ) -
10-07-2014, 10:03 PMNoll
@Razzle
In a very glose market like gardening (not many players have access to gardening), you can undercut how much you want, you still wont sell more than the demand.
And know what? That 100k seed you're selling, it's an investment to make 1mill worth seeds. So who's buying them is making more and more money off you.
Anyway, if you keep undercutting obsessively your goods even if ur not selling them, you are the one obsessed with gil gains.
I keep selling my stuffs befere them, but they devalued the market too much. Eventually I'll have to move to another seed. -
10-07-2014, 10:08 PMDefendPopPunk<sarcasm>Oh dang why didn't I think of that. It's always been done so there's no problems guys. I should use this on anyone who's ever been discriminated against.</sarcasm>Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadray