[Dev1032] Poll: Lower MP Cost for Cure/Sacrifice/Curaga or leave it the way it is

It's funny that melee players always blame healers when they die

but in the forums they voted for "leave it the way it is"

I don't know. It's not so bad with Siphon MP and Spiritbind.

I think they should be lowered a little bit, not back to what they originally were.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I don't know. It's not so bad with Siphon MP and Spiritbind.

I think they should be lowered a little bit, not back to what they originally were.

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Agreed!
I think it's okay that they raised the MP costs, but maybe they went a bit overboard? I'd appreciate a slight lowering from current levels.

Siphon MP is good when you're grinding. If you're doing NMs, you will eventually drain their MP and then you can't use Siphon MP anymore. ^^;

Spiritbind is back on my action bar after a long absence. ^^

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Leave as is. I believe that when WHM comes one of it's perks will be lower MP costs for Cure spells to encourage people to use it.

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Leave it the way it is (1.18).

As many others have said, this is only *part* of the changes coming to the Class System, let alone the new Final Fantasy Job System being released (1.20 - 1.21).

With MP being *valuable* now, it brings a whole new dynamic to combat. Before 1.18, doing the "high level content" at the time (the 5 Open World NMs), or even taking on R70 - 80 Mobs for the fun of it, was a joke for Mages. AOE Cure, AOE Sacrifice III, AOE Siphon MP II, repeat, with almost no hate repercussions, let alone MP Management thought.

Now after 1.18, not only do Mages have to think about things, but it also means everyone in the party should do their part to make each Battle successful.

For example, if you've ever fought a Puk, you can see them "glowing" and charging up their Flip Kick Frontal Attack (Weaponskill). This can be avoided if you move to the side or behind it fast enough. It's just one example, but positioning in battle, actually thinking and not just spamming "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 " (for DoW) and not having Mages just sit back and spam the occasional AOE Cure III is much more important now.

It also makes DoW abilities like Second Wind I / II, Life Surge, Bloodbath, etc., *useful* and helpful. They can regain HP back with these abilities and "pitch in" during longer battles to help offset some Curing load.

Lastly, like Alexia writes,

* We don't know what the White Mage JOB Layer is going to be like when it gets released.

Who's to say that once you activate the White Mage Layer (on top of Conjurer Class), that:

* MP Costs are Reduced 25%.
* Recast Timers are Reduced 25%.

and various other changes to make White Mage stand out more?

We need to wait to see all changes before demanding things get reverted. Let's see what 1.19, 1.20 and the Job System brings before crucifying Yoshida-san and his team. I think Yoshida-san said it best in his Letter from Producer:

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Yoshida: the theme of the overhaul to the battle system is reward effort, reduce monotony. Let’s see if that holds off the pokes.

Think of the satisfaction you get when taking out an enemy solo by a stroke of brilliance. Or the supreme exhilaration you feel when pwning entire hoards of foes by playing out your party role to perfection. Now, in contrast, imagine a person who, with only half his heart in the battle, struggles to dispatch the enemy. This kind of range in experience is what we’re aiming for with the reformed battle system—a system that rewards effort and innovation.

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Before 1.18, it was truly *monotonous*. Guildleve Parties (even at 5 Star Settings at Broken Water), Raptor Parties, Open World NMs: Mage sit back and spam AOE Cure / Sacrifice, with no care for MP since you can get it back so fast (and it costs so little).

DoW didn't care if they got hit, another AOE Cure is coming right around the corner.

Now after 1.18?

Enmity matters. Watch out for how much Hate you pull. Time your spells. Watch your MP. Be smarter. Combat *does* feel more rewarding (at least going through Dzemael Darkhold (even in Raptor Parties)). ;)

I can't wait to see what's next.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

It's funny that melee players always blame healers when they die

but in the forums they voted for "leave it the way it is"

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Very funny indeed!

If in a random party, I'm not going to be wasting my MP on the DDs if things stay the way they are.
Anyway, it will make the battle more challenging for them, which is good and what they want, right?

We all want to feel that we make a difference, we add value to the group, and are appreciated for our contributions.

Perhaps the reason the non-tank melee classes are especially vocal in this debate is because mages can deal damage just as good, if not better than they can -- and do it from a distance, plus we can play other roles as well.

The non-tank melee classes tend to be the ones with the "take that", "you deserved to be nerfed" and "learn how to play" attitude toward mages.

So how can SE fix this? Especially if they, as Yoshi P may have hinted, lower the MP costs in a future patch?

- What about buffing Marauder and Lancer weapon skill damage output?
- How about making Steadfast more powerful?
- Or give the Lancer greater ability to quickly move in and out of attack range?

But if anyone from SE is listening, please do not lower mages' attack spell potency because we still need to be able to play solo sometimes. And not everyone who chose Conjurer wishes to play White Mage.

I like how healing is strategy more so than spamming and over-healing others. Plus there's many utilities for caster to lower mp and gain mp.... utilize it, please.

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Originally Posted by Mikita

We all want to feel that we make a difference, we add value to the group, and are appreciated for our contributions.

Perhaps the reason the non-tank melee classes are especially vocal in this debate is because mages can deal damage just as good, if not better than they can -- and do it from a distance, plus we can play other roles as well.

The non-tank melee classes tend to be the ones with the "take that", "you deserved to be nerfed" and "learn how to play" attitude toward mages.

So how can SE fix this? Especially if they, as Yoshi P may have hinted, lower the MP costs in a future patch?

- What about buffing Marauder and Lancer weapon skill damage output?
- How about making Steadfast more powerful?
- Or give the Lancer greater ability to quickly move in and out of attack range?

But if anyone from SE is listening, please do not lower mages' attack spell potency because we still need to be able to play solo sometimes. And not everyone who chose Conjurer wishes to play White Mage.

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I have a feeling that even though mage classes might do more dmg than non-tanking melee, in the future maybe for blm or what ever magic damage focused class, I want to believe that they will make casting bigger spells longer to cast and even more powerful, but we can't be hit directly for long/ or at all. We'll need melee to be the dmg in between down time in between nukes so we don't pull threat. Like in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Leave it the way it is (1.18).

As many others have said, this is only *part* of the changes coming to the Class System, let alone the new Final Fantasy Job System being released (1.20 - 1.21).

With MP being *valuable* now, it brings a whole new dynamic to combat. Before 1.18, doing the "high level content" at the time (the 5 Open World NMs), or even taking on R70 - 80 Mobs for the fun of it, was a joke for Mages. AOE Cure, AOE Sacrifice III, AOE Siphon MP II, repeat, with almost no hate repercussions, let alone MP Management thought.

Now after 1.18, not only do Mages have to think about things, but it also means everyone in the party should do their part to make each Battle successful.

For example, if you've ever fought a Puk, you can see them "glowing" and charging up their Flip Kick Frontal Attack (Weaponskill). This can be avoided if you move to the side or behind it fast enough. It's just one example, but positioning in battle, actually thinking and not just spamming "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 1 1 " (for DoW) and not having Mages just sit back and spam the occasional AOE Cure III is much more important now.

It also makes DoW abilities like Second Wind I / II, Life Surge, Bloodbath, etc., *useful* and helpful. They can regain HP back with these abilities and "pitch in" during longer battles to help offset some Curing load.

Lastly, like Alexia writes,

* We don't know what the White Mage JOB Layer is going to be like when it gets released.

Who's to say that once you activate the White Mage Layer (on top of Conjurer Class), that:

* MP Costs are Reduced 25%.
* Recast Timers are Reduced 25%.

and various other changes to make White Mage stand out more?

We need to wait to see all changes before demanding things get reverted. Let's see what 1.19, 1.20 and the Job System brings before crucifying Yoshida-san and his team. I think Yoshida-san said it best in his Letter from Producer:

Before 1.18, it was truly *monotonous*. Guildleve Parties (even at 5 Star Settings at Broken Water), Raptor Parties, Open World NMs: Mage sit back and spam AOE Cure / Sacrifice, with no care for MP since you can get it back so fast (and it costs so little).

DoW didn't care if they got hit, another AOE Cure is coming right around the corner.

Now after 1.18?

Enmity matters. Watch out for how much Hate you pull. Time your spells. Watch your MP. Be smarter. Combat *does* feel more rewarding (at least going through Dzemael Darkhold (even in Raptor Parties)). ;)

I can't wait to see what's next.

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Couldn't have said it better myself!

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Originally Posted by Dauntlesslotus

I like how healing is strategy more so than spamming and over-healing others. Plus there's many utilities for caster to lower mp and gain mp.... utilize it, please.

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Not as easy as you think. When you put into account that Spiritbind gives off a lot of enmity, you cant AoE siphon mp, and exhaultation is a 10 min recast... it's not that easy.

I'm sure my view point has been said earlier, but here goes nothing...
The new MP cost for a few spells hasn't really affected me at all. Sure, it makes me a little more wary of throwing out endless cures, but with CON's 50% MP cost ability, and THA/CONs MP restoration, it isn't very hard to make a recovery mid-fight.

I think its okay now. If they could find a happy medium then I'm fine with that too. Something had to be done though. Before the patch there was almost no risk or fear of anything since mages could cure bomb with no worries to hate or losing MP. I think this change has made a lot of players better actually.

lower.... im not saying to what it was but mebbe 30-50% of what i t is now for none Ga cures

I also think the high MP is good because like before, You can't have melee running around with Cure/sac 3 not having to worry about anything. Now they will have no MP. Makes the classes a little more unique IMO. If you want to cure effectively, go mage. Instead of every melee and their mother being able to do it.

It has been a little harder now, but nothing too demanding.

The last time I played a MMO I played as a healer. And I had to check my MP constantly to keep a party of 12 alive. So, I'm kind of used to this.

The only thing that needs to be changed is items. Ethers are not really that good. Perhaps if they added a little potency to the effect things would be better.

I think we know there needs to be some balancing when it comes to MP cost on certain spells, however the thing I am most annoyed with in this last patch was the new spells curega/II. I don't really see the need for these spells. It just adds more spells to an already overcrowded Action bar not to mention the extra AP it cost. My suggestion for the Dev team is to bring back the Cure/Sacrifice AoE toggle just make AoE cost more MP/hate which could be also be assigned to the nukes as well. This allows for more MP cost depending on if you cast as AoE or single. This also removes unneeded spells thus freeing up the the Action bar and AP. I think this would serve as a happy medium for the mage classes and could be universal.

Come on guys, now that the game is a little bit harderd you start complaining?! If Cure spells cost a lot of MP DD and Tank should be careful to not to loose their HP as before patch...

Keep it for the Non-Magic class and lower it a bit for Magic Classes. (like 50-60 instead of 75)

I'd like some spells to have minor mp cost tweaks, or ungimp the THM's sacrifice spell.
Cuz that crap by making it single target is a kick in the nuts.

The poll response speaks for itself. LEAVE THE MP COST ALONE! People are happy with the changes.

lower Mp cost

The amount of MP required right now is ridiculous, considering how little health the cure spells even heal for.

It's too early to tell they should try to balance the stats before they start ripping the half-finished work apart. Currently all the stats seem very w.i.p and I'm sure when the food arrives they need to be reconsidered again.

Make them half way between what they were and what they are now.

Leave them as they are is winning.

Leave it. ^^

The extreme MP costs are impossible to solo when you are not a con.
Playing as con is easy but what about an archer?
Playing archer solo is harder then con and without being able to heal it's impossible..
I thought they said the game was there for solo people and party people..
Nothing against parties but im not gonna be a zombie following the "leader" around to where he/she wants to go..
I prefer to solo and do what i want to do..
But without cure that is now impossible unless you fight lower ranked mobs.
Make the mp75 only when you are con but leave it as it was for people that are not con's.

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Originally Posted by GreatLeviathan

The extreme MP costs are impossible to solo when you are not a con.

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<CoughStygianSpikesCough>

In other words: Strategy doesn't die just because you are fighting solo.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

<CoughStygianSpikesCough>

In other words: Strategy doesn't die just because you are fighting solo.

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Well all people that are saying this are the ones that already took full adventage of the old system and have like 5 lvl 50 classes. The opinions of those should not be counted.
Not everyone is playing 19 hours a day. Some have a job.
People keep on saying there are healing potions but they restore 50 to 100 hp. Useless :-)
For the class not con it should be like 40mp for cure 2 and for con all magic spells should be 75 then not just cure.
Con is already overpowered.

Leave it how it is.

It's funny how there are twice as many "Likes" to leave the MP at it's current, higher price than there are "Likes" to lower the price. However, the forums are displaying quite the opposite opinion with an enormous amount of threads displaying that they hate the new MP cost.

If the squeakiest wheel gets the oil first, I think we should be posting more threads of praise for SE; else the whiners and complainers get what they want whilst the majority of us get squat. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by GreatLeviathan

Well all people that are saying this are the ones that already took full adventage of the old system and have like 5 lvl 50 classes. The opinions of those should not be counted.

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I think it very well should be counted. They're the ones that know exactly how easy it was to rank up. I remember getting rank 1-30 in a day and a half. Then I fiddled around a bit and realized the game was just too easy and stopped playing. Since the update I've played a lot more and had a lot more fun doing it. I solo monsters 10 levels higher than myself with little issue, 7-8 levels higher seems better with less downtime though. I love the MP costs though and don't have a 50 :)

I think they should leave the MP cost where it is. However, they should add gear that grants players substantial MP boosts. This way players who can't quite manage their MP can just stack the gear for it. Players who don't have a problem with the MP cost can stack gear that enhances spell potency and be more rewarded for playing strategically.

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Originally Posted by GreatLeviathan

Well all people that are saying this are the ones that already took full adventage of the old system and have like 5 lvl 50 classes. The opinions of those should not be counted.
Not everyone is playing 19 hours a day.

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My THM is 25 and my CON is 22 and I think it's fine.

I think it should be lowered. Cure 1 = 75mp...no thanks. 25-30mp would be fine. Cure 2 would be fine around 70. Cure 3, no more than 100mp. Keep in mind, these costs are much higher than XI's as I have taken into account the possibility to have a fairly large MP pool if all of your stats are dumped into MND.

I feel like the MP pools are just like Enmity and Auto Attack Speed. The initial values of these mechanics have to be harsh and difficult so that future updates can add gear and abilities that augment it.

If gladiators were enmity spraying super tanks there would be no reason for the Paladin job they are working on.
If MP was still unlimited, there would be no purpose to future auto-refresh or MP+ gear.
If auto attack speed was ridiculously fast there would be no need for Haste* gear, abilities, and spells.

*Bombs in this game upset me because they tease us by casting haste on themselves.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire

I think they should leave the MP cost where it is. However, they should add gear that grants players substantial MP boosts.

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If 1.19 will be adjusted the stats, it is likely that food + MP and + Magic Potency find a way through the game (now works but it's damn complex cause affinity). I think this is enough when it will works better than now.

My opinion is...

A small reduction would be alright, but really I'm happy with where it is now. Gameplay is better, and ether bottles will become necessary to have on hand, which I think is a good thing.

I do, however, think the white mage job should be tuned differently, and allow healers to heal and buff their teams more effectively. Gameplay that consistantly takes a role out of a fight for several moments at a time, imo, is never a good one. Healers have a role, and there should be something to do regarding it at most, if not all, times.

Leave it the way it is. The battle team has an overall idea of how the battle system will work. Seems to me that if we want a strategic game we should let the guys making all of the other changes to the system choose how much mp things cost. Besides, we run the r45 dungeon a few times a week now and our mages haven't complained once or been unable to do their job.

I "liked" keep it the way it is. But... instead of having it cost a gazillion MP (which I agree, it does)... why the hell not just make the proper adjustments which would leave non magic-using main jobs with a much smaller MP pool? Keep it simpler. Lower all numbers across the board. HP and MP pools included. Not everything has to be directed by Michael Bay.

I vote keep as is. Otherwise things become too easy and ppl get bored.