Scrap the marketplace system please

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

I object this suggestion.
It will make tax and charge difficult to calculate, selling history and retainer log over-flow,
most important is now small qty could be listed at higher price, it is predictable the suggestion "buy from a stack" will ruin the market.

For example, when everyone can buy 1piece of cystal shard by the same price for buying 1000pc,
all smaller qty will be forced to list cheaper than the 1000pc seller,
and the 1000pc seller, ofcoz, need to list cheaper than everyone.

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The system in 1.0 let you buy units and the market was a lot more stable than it was here. A lot less waste and fairer to the buyer that's for sure.

yeah i love the market. even when im down i like the market. its easy to work with and easy to abuse. ive taken say shards. ill take shards and throw them up, what do i do if they undercut? i undercut then undercut again sometimes i undercut like this if say they dropped to 120

85. x99
87. x99
89. x99
93 x99

to instigate them into droppiing and its a lol how well that works. you get 2-3 guys like you and 500 shards you and drop the price 70 gil and buy so many shards you have to give them to your retainer you have so many. then guess what, all those 1000 stacks you put out, trying so hard to sell? i bought everything for 70 gil worth of board and you have nothing. now prices skyrocket and i made twice what you did off your work :)

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Originally Posted by Killabye

yeah i love the market. even when im down i like the market. its easy to work with and easy to abuse. ive taken say shards. ill take shards and throw them up, what do i do if they undercut? i undercut then undercut again sometimes i undercut like this if say they dropped to 120

85. x99
87. x99
89. x99
93 x99

to instigate them into droppiing and its a lol how well that works. you get 2-3 guys like you and 500 shards you and drop the price 70 gil and buy so many shards you have to give them to your retainer you have so many. then guess what, all those 1000 stacks you put out, trying so hard to sell? i bought everything for 70 gil worth of board and you have nothing. now prices skyrocket and i made twice what you did off your work :)

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For my crafting classes I like these undercutting wars which go on on the shard market. They happen quite often, just about any day you see shards plummit by about 50% simply as a few players are repeatedly undercutting each other.

I check upon the board several times a day just for that, and when prices are low, I snatch and hoard up. Easily then I can make a good profit on my crafted materials :).

on exodus like last week, ^^ i do the same thing, on the board all shards were over 120, at like midnight a guy comes and dumps in succession on each 200x27 200x27 400x27 400x27 800x27 800x27 1000x27. i got all of em but the1000 stacks, was like half a mil in like 5 min, woulda been a million if i would have thought to wait and watch longer buti didnt. underbid! dont let anyone else get a sale, underbid everything!

i always wonder if theirs people doing my strategy too, if you just troll the mb hit me up. we could monopolize lol

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Originally Posted by Killabye

i always wonder if theirs people doing my strategy too, if you just troll the mb hit me up. we could monopolize lol

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>.< ...

Not gonna lie... I hate you more than just a little bit.

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Originally Posted by RinL

Not really, it would just speed up everyones current process. Addons dont make prices drop, they only provide a better quality of life for everyone using the market.

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Yes, it would speed up everyone's process. Which drives prices down. Especially if the add-on is super convenient, like press a button anywhere to update your price to the lowest. People would change from updating prices every 5 minutes (or longer, if they are in a dungeon and can't acess their retainer) to... Let's say every 5 seconds.

Unless the item is one that's swiftly bought faster than it can be obtained, two people would steadily trickle the price down. The problem is only exacerbated as more and more people use the app. 2 people competing may not drop it fast... But 10 will. 50 people trying to sell wares? That will crash hard until even things like primal crafting mats are better off sold to NPCs.

What's needed is for more people to avoid destructive pricing tendencies and the thought that getting rid of product is all that matters.

Ffxi had the worst market place and it could EASILY be more cutthroat and manipulated by rmt.

Seriously, ffxi is an old game and people should stop trying to take things from it into XIV. Theres tons of other market place ideas. Like bidding and instant selling would be an amazing addition to the system we already have now.

And by the way, you dont need to always 'adjust' (undercut more!) prices. You can just wait for your items to be sold.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Yes, it would speed up everyone's process. Which drives prices down. Especially if the add-on is super convenient, like press a button anywhere to update your price to the lowest. People would change from updating prices every 5 minutes (or longer, if they are in a dungeon and can't acess their retainer) to... Let's say every 5 seconds.

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Agree wholeheartedly

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

What's needed is for more people to avoid destructive pricing tendencies and the thought that getting rid of product is all that matters.

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Sometimes all that does matter is getting rid of the product. After whittling down the price and the item still being up for sale 3-5 days later, I bottom the floor it to get rid of it and free up the slot for a new item.

The system as stands now only affects people who want to sell fast. Seriously, the MB is a fantastic tool and if all youre doing is adjusting prices and undercutting more to sell your stuff... Youre doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

What's needed is for more people to avoid destructive pricing tendencies and the thought that getting rid of product is all that matters.

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Couldnt grab the full quote, sorry!

A free market is a free market, Urthdigger. No amount of convenience or inconvenience will change how people act in such an environment. People will sell what they have at whatever price they set until that price reaches a point that they feel it is no longer worthwhile. Markets will tank only to a certain point, much like shards. Sure, prices drop every once in a while, but do you ever see them go down to nothing? No, because people know that they are worth at least x amount on their realm.

The addition addons will not make people drop prices down below what they normally would. It will only increase the quality of life for those who like to run lots of auctions. Most MMO's allow addons and all that do have some to help with auctions and markets. It just makes things better <3

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Yes, it would speed up everyone's process. Which drives prices down. Especially if the add-on is super convenient, like press a button anywhere to update your price to the lowest. People would change from updating prices every 5 minutes (or longer, if they are in a dungeon and can't acess their retainer) to... Let's say every 5 seconds.

Unless the item is one that's swiftly bought faster than it can be obtained, two people would steadily trickle the price down. The problem is only exacerbated as more and more people use the app. 2 people competing may not drop it fast... But 10 will. 50 people trying to sell wares? That will crash hard until even things like primal crafting mats are better off sold to NPCs.

What's needed is for more people to avoid destructive pricing tendencies and the thought that getting rid of product is all that matters.

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which is why such an addon will never be permitted.

everyone knows the WoW market became a total joke.

Here's a three week sample of my 3 month data of the Water Cluster Market.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing[/QUOTE]

wow puttin in work pimp! i honestly just watch, i know what i like and its fluctuations so i know when its low and high, its that simple sometimes. but low. sell high. people dropping a gil at a time? addons to underbid eachother? ive seen people with 80,000 shards on one retainer. say they created a bidding war and bought low, on Your product. not your product no more, cause you were greedy

another thing i like to do is decently big moving products. theyre great cause just buying some creates a bidding war. say you go and see something and its selling higher than expected. go buy 3-4. oh wow, one guy bought 4, obviously everyone else wants six! wait till they under bid then boom, use both retainers and underbid them. nobodies buying that shit lol theres no real demand beyond the usual but now theyve underbid and you can underbid them. give it an hour, take a loss on one or two. next time they underbid pull out and buy their product.sell it tommorow for a decent gain after the market stabilizes. they wont craft more, its selling for too cheap. let the market regain then make your money

It's much easier to get sales if you sell smart. Too many people put up items in huge quantities. If its a fairly common and unused item, sell in small sets. Armorsmith, i generally don't need 50 HQ Aldgoat leather. I need 2-5 at any given time. Iron rivets HQ are up on my server for 1500 per item but in large stacks. 10-20. I put mine up for 2500 in sets of 1 or 2. All were sold over night. People don't want to buy mass quantities all the time, look at the items use, commonly sold amounts before sticking anything up there. Obviously there are exceptions like Ores and such.

If someone under cuts me by alot, and I've seen this quite often and at stupid prices at that. Items below NPC value. Buy that crap up if there isn't a massive amount, resell it. Even if there is a massive amount of items for sale lower than you. Buy the cheapest ones, less competition, adjust how large of stacks you are selling. Make it appealing to what the crafters need number wise.

And if all else fails. Wait. Patience pays off more often than not, it can be extremely frustrating. I had sat on items for weeks at a time before they sold but they always sold and often without touching my initial price. The market is a game of patience, people who lack that will lose money and be taken advantage of.

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Originally Posted by RinL

Couldnt grab the full quote, sorry!

A free market is a free market, Urthdigger. No amount of convenience or inconvenience will change how people act in such an environment. People will sell what they have at whatever price they set until that price reaches a point that they feel it is no longer worthwhile. Markets will tank only to a certain point, much like shards. Sure, prices drop every once in a while, but do you ever see them go down to nothing? No, because people know that they are worth at least x amount on their realm.

The addition addons will not make people drop prices down below what they normally would. It will only increase the quality of life for those who like to run lots of auctions. Most MMO's allow addons and all that do have some to help with auctions and markets. It just makes things better <3

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In a real world environment, that is the case. However, in an MMO environment with virtual goods, folks often act as if they are having a liquidation sale. There is no shortage of people who feel their item MUST be placed first on the list, and in fact that's the very group that would be interested in this add-on. When prices hit a point where it's no longer worthwhile, do you really think those people would go "Hoo boy, this is getting a bit cheap for my blood, better hold on to this." No, they're either going to keep dropping the price to keep up, under the assumption that something is better than nothing, or straight up sell it to an NPC.

The sole reason prices don't do that currently is because it's a hassle to change your prices, with several menus to jump through for each item. This both directly slows down the rate that items can be re-listed, but also requires them to visit their retainer bell, and go through a lot of hassle. The current system often results in people going "Eh, I'll keep playing the game even if my item drops down to 3rd-4th on the list." With an add-on to make things simple, what player WOULDN'T constantly go "Yeah, ok, put my items at the top of the list!"

Prices go down every time someone adjusts their prices to be the lowest. By making it easier, they will do so more often. If they do so more often, prices drop faster. It's that simple.

4 retainers. 80 DIFFERENT items. You get sales then.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

4 retainers. 80 DIFFERENT items. You get sales then.

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use unit grouping/bulk pricing and you still get sales.

@ Urthdigger

If people choose to sell their items under value so be it. People will buy them and re-list. This is done in any game with a market system, ff14 included. As for difficulty, I have two retainers and usually have them at their limit on the markets - no amount of menus is going to make me decide not to re-list if the prices go down. That being said, if it gets below a certain point I just return it to my retainers inventory. Wait a few days, sell a few things, then post again at normal prices.

What this boils down to is people are people, and they will do what they want in an economy. A game should *always* strive to be as enjoyable as possible for its players, and hindering the auction process through the use of several windows and the blocking of addons is a poor choice in my opinion. Even with those obstacles, im going to keep my wares at the top as long as the money is good. I would just enjoy a smoother process via changes to their system, or player made addons.

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Originally Posted by RinL

@ Urthdigger

If people choose to sell their items under value so be it. People will buy them and re-list. This is done in any game with a market system, ff14 included. As for difficulty, I have two retainers and usually have them at their limit on the markets - no amount of menus is going to make me decide not to re-list if the prices go down. That being said, if it gets below a certain point I just return it to my retainers inventory. Wait a few days, sell a few things, then post again at normal prices.

What this boils down to is people are people, and they will do what they want in an economy. A game should *always* strive to be as enjoyable as possible for its players, and hindering the auction process through the use of several windows and the blocking of addons is a poor choice in my opinion. Even with those obstacles, im going to keep my wares at the top as long as the money is good. I would just enjoy a smoother process via changes to their system, or player made addons.

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They haven't hindered the auction process at all. I check the status of my retainers sales once a day, and remove/adjust as needed once a week. An addon to one click lower your prices to be the cheapest is a really bad idea because that's what people will be doing. 'My shit isn't low enough. Drop prices' And as more and more people start doing this what do others have to do? Either try to buy up all the garbage people throw on the markets while they are gathering for GC or quests, re-list it and rinse and repeat the process until the people spamming this add-on are out of items or lower their prices to compensate.

An addon to parse damage is completely different. Something to change market prices at a single click, anywhere directly affects the game. Compared to a parser which is intended to be used for you to record your dps through various rotations, testing attribute weights, or gear combinations.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

The solution is rather simple. Whenever you buy something off the market board yourself, skip the cheapest items. Buy from somewhere in the middle.

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Sure, you can do that. I would buy the cheapest for crafting needs or just to resell. Then again I am always selling the cheapest to get rid of everything fast...

names should be blanked OR who ever places the item first with the same price should have the item on top.

You have 2 people selling an item for the same price, but the other person is near the begining of the alphabet, I don't know about you, but if it was me buying it, I would choose the first person on my list.

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Originally Posted by RinL

Couldnt grab the full quote, sorry!

A free market is a free market, Urthdigger. No amount of convenience or inconvenience will change how people act in such an environment.

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While addons might not prevent poor pricing, access to information will certainly allow the markets to correct themselves faster. In a world where all the market players can see which items are posted below material cost easily, that item will be purchased and reposted for a profit in a matter of minutes.

The cumbersome nature of the marketboard hinders all but the most dedicated from correcting the market.

I can't comprehend how people can defend the current system we have in place.
It may be fine the way it is, yes. But ultimately it really is terrible. The rampant undercutting is a serious problem.
Saying stop undercutting the undercutters really is not a great solution. I make gil ok the way it is, but I would prefer
a FFXI kind of AH system. Too much information is a bad thing and that is what we have now.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

When prices hit a point where it's no longer worthwhile, do you really think those people would go "Hoo boy, this is getting a bit cheap for my blood, better hold on to this." No, they're either going to keep dropping the price to keep up, under the assumption that something is better than nothing, or straight up sell it to an NPC.

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I actually agree with you, Urthdigger, but Rin is making a fair point.
I manipulate the glamour market fairly regularly, and yes you can drive the price down like a liquidation sale but (in the example of glamours) there is a point when the glamours are driven down to where they are worth less than the sum of their materials (which is hilariously stupid) and 1) at this point most of the competition will say "screw it, i'll craft something else" which means the supply will slowly go down (but the demand is stable) and prices normalize until a new war begins and 2) this is a great time to buy them! because you can stockpile them for less than it costs you to make them, and you can be relatively assured that they will go back up. It might take a new vanity item introduced (at which point they will skyrocket) but they always go back up.

It's the same with shards. There is always some demand - even if some crafters have flash sales where they drive things to the point of worthlessness - it isn't a sustainable situation because OTHER people understand the value of even virtual items (time/materials costs).

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Originally Posted by NoDRG

I can't comprehend how people can defend the current system we have in place.

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But rampant undercutting isn't a serious problem.

If undercutting is happening at all, it's only because the supply and demand are uneven. This system is actually one that's fairly close to a free market. The only "regulations" in place are items with vendor values (buying or selling) and even then some people completely ignore those. Can't tell you how many fish I've bought for 15 gil just to sell for 500 gil on the marketplace - in bulk! That aside - undercutting is a problem of supply and demand (and sometimes impatience). On the other hand, undercutting is a buyer's delight.

One of the biggest problems in FFXI (including RMT) was how ridiculously out of proportion the economy got - how inflated it got. There was a point in the game where you couldn't even gear up your Lv30 character in respectable gear (that wouldn't get you kicked out of an XP party by the elitists which were also rampant in XI) without dropping thousands upon thousands of gil (which let me remind you, was difficult to make as a new player - unlike XIV which basically gives you a 500k buy in if you just complete the storyline).

Everyone here wants prices to be high all the time so they can make more money - but in the end, that's not the kind of stability this market needs. You'll just run out of buyers - the vast majority of players who simply make gil by running dungeons and can't afford 10k per food item every 30 minutes.

Don't succumb to peer pressure.

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Originally Posted by Shai

If undercutting is happening at all, it's only because the supply and demand are uneven.

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No, undercutting is happening due to a desire to have your item listed at the top. I don't mind large undercuts to be competitive. But undercutting by 1 gil is a nuisance.

In a system such as FFXI's AH, large undercuts still happened. But small undercuts were not as big of a problem due to your price being somewhat hidden. Yes, people did it, but how much lower is your competition selling for? That's anyone's guess. Undercut by a lot and you're reaching the point of dropping the price, which is really no different to what happens in the current MB system we have on XIV.

On here, you can have a slow selling item, match the current top price, and within a few minutes of putting it up for sale, you have 5-10 of them above yours selling for 1-5 gil less. It's ridiculous.

Again, I have no problem with undercutting. I make tons of gil easily. But selling in our market system is a major annoyance.

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One of the biggest problems in FFXI (including RMT) was how ridiculously out of proportion the economy got - how inflated it got.

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This isn't an issue with FFXI's market. It's an issue with how much gil is in circulation.

As i've said before (in this thread).

I use reduced prices when selling items in bulk, but increase the price for smaller amounts by looking at other sellers and their pricing.

I think for awhile i was selling vitriol (to those with no beast vendor access) at
10 for 800 each (8000)
20 for 650 each (13000)
30 for 500 each (15000)

...coz lets face it, people crafting using that material can afford the price hike >:D. . .

anyway. people caught on and tanked the prices of that to below vendor price =_=

I Like the current system as both a buyer and seller of items.

If I craft 40 items and put them all at ~100 gil below going rate 30 will sell before the end of the day. 2 will sell before I log in the next day. changing price on 8 items.

Also Learn howto put stuff on the AH.

Stacks of 99 will not sell as fast as stacks of 9 or 10 depending on how many are needed to craft. You can often put stuff on the AH for more and sell after in small stacks.
When I undercut I undercut enough that item + tax = 1-100 below the next in the list so my item is the best price regardless of which city you get it in. undercutting 1 gil doesn't make it the best price.

To be honest the current system is just fine. Undercutting is bound to happen, I think a good portion of the community does not how to play the market properly which results in this mess of a market we have now. The only advice I have to offer is to buy out the undercutters and resell.

As an FFXI vet, I do prefer this market system to the old auction house.

To be honest the market board isn't fine. A blind AH system works better prevents items from being undercutted down to the point where there worth nothing. In fact why buy anything from the market board,or even bother to craft when u can get the gear from Tombs and dungeons. The best gear in the game should be crafted this would greatly stimulate the economy,or at the least be a alternative for people not wanting to run coils. At least Final Fantasy XI Online,World of Warcraft,Aion Online had a stable economic system. ARR economy is a disaster, at least in Version 1.0 the retainer system may have been garbage but the economy was stable. Come on folks its been over a year and the games economic system still has not stabilized,hint hint, there is a severe problem here.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

A blind AH system works better prevents items from being undercutted down to the point where there worth nothing.

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No it doesn't.

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In fact why buy anything from the market board,or even bother to craft when u can get the gear from Tombs and dungeons.

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Crafted gear is meldable.

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The best gear in the game should be crafted this would greatly stimulate the economy,or at the least be a alternative for people not wanting to run coils.

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The best gear is crafted+meld.

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At least Final Fantasy XI Online,World of Warcraft,Aion Online had a stable economic system. ARR economy is a disaster, at least in Version 1.0 the retainer system may have been garbage but the economy was stable. Come on folks its been over a year and the games economic system still has not stabilized,hint hint, there is a severe problem here.

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Free markets work better overall to move gil around, Sorry that you can't be a gilhorder in ff14, tough luck.

So if I buy a item from the AH and it sells for say 500k and one of the most valuable items in that AH what do you think people will do? Gee I wonder there going to farm it,then undercut the the current ah listing,then the next person will do that,then the next person wil do that,till its devalued down to nothing. This goes on with every item in that AH. You want to know why, because you can see all current items being sold and at the price its selling for wich causes massive undercutting. Why do you think Final Fantay XI Online has a blind AH system,and don't tell me it doesn't,(you cant see what a item goes for, until after its sold. You can only see how many stacks there are. it is to prevent what is going on in this game, with a massive deflation of the Economy). By the way as im writing this post my stuff has been under cute by 5k

Hey Squall you obvisouly have never played World of Warcraft, Aion Online,Final Fantasy XI online, EverQuest, Warhammer Online, Phanasy Star Online,Phanasy Star Universe, do u need me to keep going? This is the only game that uses this system and the only game with a bankrupt Economic System.

In a game where you're paid thousands of gil for doing small quests, hests, dungeons and the likes, your opinion is completely void, there is no bankruptcy going on except in your mind.

Never played world of retcon, never cared to.

Stop enforcing what you think should be done just because you can't be a gilfat lala with 20 houses.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

In a game where you're paid thousands of gil for doing small quests, hests, dungeons and the likes, your opinion is completely void, there is no bankruptcy going on except in your mind.

Never played world of retcon, never cared to.

Stop enforcing what you think should be done just because you can't be a gilfat lala with 20 houses.

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Again twisting my words around,im talking about a economic struct that would benfit the games economy as a whole, not referring to my self.

I prefer the market board the way it is. Though I wouldn't mind the auction like FF11 cause paying 1 gil for something worth 100k+ puts a smile on my face, but getting a tell from the person that posted that gave me tears of joy... and their tears were delicious.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

Again twisting my words around,im talking about a economic struct that would benfit the games economy as a whole, not referring to my self.

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And the economies you suggested would not work in the FFXIV world.

I think the current system is fine, the only change I'd make is to take out the sale history , so people couldn't see what others paid.