"Elite Marks" or "Hoping for Change"

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Originally Posted by Lucke

How about the reward based on how many people fight. A group of 4 people fighting an S-rank would get like 150 seals. The horde only gain 5 seals. This incentivizes(sp.) not joining the horde because then you get very little seals. This however opens the door for abuse. You and your little group are doing fine and then the horde joins and nerfs your seals. I dunno.

I still stay make them force spawns like treasure maps. We can't handle open world mobs.

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This would probably lead to even more hoarding of marks. My FC has gotten quieter and quieter as it is about calling marks and I sure as hell can't get a hunt LS this late in the game.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

How about the reward based on how many people fight.

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that's also very difficult to program.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

that's also very difficult to program.

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So what you are saying is that professional programmers who are working on a game that has a monthly subscription should only fix something if it's "easily programmed"? Of COURSE programming an mmo system isn't freaking easy. If it was, EVERY game would be a smashing success.

As long as SE charges a monthly subscription, I feel they should make every effort to remove access barriers to content for the people playing the game. I'm not saying lower skill-based difficulty, I'm saying lower access barriers so that people can actually participate if they want to without getting permission from their whole server.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

So what you are saying is that professional programmers who are working on a game that has a monthly subscription should only fix something if it's "easily programmed"? Of COURSE programming an mmo system isn't freaking easy. If it was, EVERY game would be a smashing success.

As long as SE charges a monthly subscription, I feel they should make every effort to remove access barriers to content for the people playing the game. I'm not saying lower skill-based difficulty, I'm saying lower access barriers so that people can actually participate if they want to without getting permission from their whole server.

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I agree they should be able to handle the programming hurdles they have, but if you look back, they have used programming difficulty to not let you be able to que with your chocobo out, not being able to be able to que as an alliance for Crystal Tower and Frontlines. In fact the whole chocobo system was scrapped and we were given the barebones system we have now because the programmers weren't going to be able to have it ready by release.

Whose fault is that, though? It's not like they are doing anything brand new and revolutionary. 99% of this stuff has been around for well over a decade in multiple other games. If SE was on the bleeding edge of design they would have an excuse, but they aren't. They are half-assing systems that other companies already went through the growing pains for. SE just needed to take to heart the lessons. People making excuses for poor planning is disappointing. It's like they LIKE paying for SE to give us broken systems as they try to reinvent the wheel.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Whose fault is that, though?

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Like I said, I agree, we get unfinished pushed back content every 3 months. It seems like other games when they are planning new content someone comes up with a cool idea, and the producer likes it and tells them to get it done, in XIV they have a good idea, and Yoshi splits them up, you half try to figure it out, the rest of you throw something together incase it doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Whose fault is that, though? It's not like they are doing anything brand new and revolutionary. 99% of this stuff has been around for well over a decade in multiple other games. If SE was on the bleeding edge of design they would have an excuse, but they aren't. They are half-assing systems that other companies already went through the growing pains for. SE just needed to take to heart the lessons. People making excuses for poor planning is disappointing. It's like they LIKE paying for SE to give us broken systems as they try to reinvent the wheel.

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What's worse is this isn't their first MMO. I just don't get it. They've been in the game making business for like, what? 20-25 years? They should have learned how to program MMOs from XI.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

So what you are saying is that professional programmers who are working on a game that has a monthly subscription should only fix something if it's "easily programmed"?

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no, i'm saying there are much simpler solutions to the same problem. don't suggest a more difficult solution that would take away from development time of new content.

It boils down to the same issue we had with fate grinding - everyone wants to be in a party, but very few people are willing to create a new party. For example; whenever a S or A rank spawns there are enough "Invite" requests to create at least 4 new parties and yet most of those same people are the ones complaining they didn't get any credit after the mark is dead.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Whose fault is that, though? It's not like they are doing anything brand new and revolutionary. 99% of this stuff has been around for well over a decade in multiple other games. If SE was on the bleeding edge of design they would have an excuse, but they aren't. They are half-assing systems that other companies already went through the growing pains for. SE just needed to take to heart the lessons. People making excuses for poor planning is disappointing. It's like they LIKE paying for SE to give us broken systems as they try to reinvent the wheel.

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As a programmer, I have to chime in on this.
Just because one game has a system or design out doesn't mean that everyone who touches a C++ book is an instant pro with it. Deciphering code can be time consuming and confusing. Oftentimes it's better to just decompile it or build on top of it. Even then, you have a platform built underneath your game with a plethora of other features that can break with one simple change.
Not only do you have to deal with how to integrate this new concept into your original design, now you have to work through general bug testing, refactors, regression testing, then a lot of other different types of testing (unit testing, user testing, performance, etc) to even show it off to your front-end: The players.

This is one of those cases where you need to shut up about something you obviously know nothing about. The IT field is already flooded with a bunch of idiots who pick up phones and answer to other idiots. Software Design doesn't have to be like that.

On topic, the correct approach isn't to just nerf something because people think it's too good. The reason people flock to it is because it's vastly more efficient than everything else. The problem isn't that it's too good, it's that it doesn't have any competition. Instead of nerfing x, threaten it by making z a comparable, or at least viable, option.
This is all assuming SE isn't going to go the route of "Is it popular? Nerf it" that every other host/dev team seems to rely on. When you force a meta, you defeat the purpose of itself.

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Originally Posted by Baneus

creating parties, etc.

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I don't mind this so much. I've created parties off the invite requests and gotten full credit and partial credit. No harm there. What I mind is when I'm in a hunt party for a couple hours actively hunting and I finally get the call for a pop. The second I get the call I teleport and start running, but by the time I'm there it's at 50% or lower and I end up getting partial or no credit. That's very frustrating, but it's the nature of the beast. There are lots and lots of people all vying for the mark, so less and less people are calling it out so they have a better chance of getting credit. Then they pull early so they have a better chance of getting credit.

I hesitate to blame the players. The rewards are extreme, and so it's a very competitive system that SE has created. This is a flawed system that SE has created, and it would be great if they could come up with some solution to make it less advantageous to certain types of players.

Or just increase the daily reward to something above a joke and I don't have to mess with the zerg anymore :-/.

i think the trouble is not the Elite mark (outside the ridiculous amount of reward we get from one mark), but the other side, the bounty we get dailies and weekly...
they need to rethink this part, add more friendly content. i have often said they need to use the leves system for this part, for allows people to have a limit and at the same time decide of when use this limit.
i'm against the simple daily stuff, you are forced to play every day... when you can't play one day, this day is lost. the leves systeme is brillant, it allows people to play when they want. if they can't play for one week, it's ok, they can catch up by doing them leves the next week.

i still hope they will use this for the dailies and weekly... it will make the hunt more interesting and people will surely spread between the leves and the elite mark (if the adjust the reward naturally)

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

The problem isn't that it's too good, it's that it doesn't have any competition. Instead of nerfing x, threaten it by making z a comparable, or at least viable, option.

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The Brawl Minus approach. Instead of balancing things out, just take whatever isn't awesome enough and PUMP IT until it's as broken and over-the-top as everything else! I agree! Give another way of getting Allied Seals OR the same amount of oil/sands so people can catch up without clinging to this one approach.

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Originally Posted by Kenji_Shiratsuki

...The solution? Limit rewards from an individual mob to 1/week...

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IMO the solution defeats below message from the producer, current design definitely is working as intended. ^^;

//quote
There are no weekly restrictions on how many seals you can acquire, so those of you feeling especially heroic are more than welcome to venture out and defeat as many marks as you can find.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...807-07-2014%29
//end quote

Just make it so their HP, Power and Defence gets a boost depending on the amount of people engaged with it. B ranks will become beasts, A ranks will become nightmares and S ranks will become -insert impossible NM here-

At least then B and A ranks will actually be fun to fight in a massive horde. Making them weaker than FATE mobs is... well, it's kinda really incredibly stupid, especially when Sands can be a reward.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

As a programmer, I have to chime in on this.
Just because one game has a system or design out doesn't mean that everyone who touches a C++ book is an instant pro with it. Deciphering code can be time consuming and confusing. Oftentimes it's better to just decompile it or build on top of it. Even then, you have a platform built underneath your game with a plethora of other features that can break with one simple change.
Not only do you have to deal with how to integrate this new concept into your original design, now you have to work through general bug testing, refactors, regression testing, then a lot of other different types of testing (unit testing, user testing, performance, etc) to even show it off to your front-end: The players.

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Other software developer here. Don't forget that in our industry competitive businesses aren't really under any obligation to share any code or designs they've made, and often, there are NDAs preventing this for years! Never mind that copying code without permission is basically illegal, and generally, using someone else's code solution is viewed as lazy and unethical. So even if one game has X feature, it can be months or years before a team of designers can figure out how to implement it without copying.

Plus, to top it all off, game programmers in particular tend to have bad habits about making code that doesn't involve a hacky, closed system, in part due to being an industry that desires really smart people with often nonexistent formal training, and due especially to the fact that pushy, incompetent publishers who want money now and not later tend to force deadlines to be extremely tight.