White Mage vs Scholar

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

@Parawill
I am extremely curious on why you consider Scholar better in an ideal situation, could you elaborate? (Since this is the internet....no sarcasm intended, just genuinely interested in what everybody thinks :) )

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No problem and thanks for the clarification. I love discussions as different perspectives leads to critical thinking. It's fun to learn and hear what others have to say. Anywho to answer your question, Tranquil basically got it. But before I continue, I will clarify that I've been speaking through scope of solo-healing content (even though there are some trials that are way easier as a White Mage than a Scholar).

(Bolded and underlined since assumptions leads to needless arguments--not you, but more for others who don't actually read blocks of text)

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

[In the case] of people knowing the fights through and through and the encounters being tank-healing-heavy with the occassional AOE-damage that a SCH can prepare for. In this kind of way, some of a WHM's raw healing power gets wasted, ie. with familiarity, and a SCH can shine more easily, especially with their DoT-fueled off-DPS and sustainability.

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With the way how most trials and raids are, there is almost no need for the amount of raw AoE Healing Power White Mage’s have in exception to emergency situations or fights that have back-to-back unavoidable raid-wide damage (i.e. Fail Super Bomb into Geocrush). Currently most trials and raids have damage flow in a long singular phase (single target vs. tank), multiple avoidable AoE phases (Weight of the Land, Radiant Plume, Super Nova, etc.), and a brief unavoidable AoE. The “phases” are basically scripted, so anyone can read damage flow easily.

With this in mind, this shifts healing priority to tanks as a well experienced group will be avoiding all avoidable damage which in return means less healing and little to none emergency situations. This leaves both healing classes various options in what to do in healing between unavoidable raid-wide damage.

Now if you remove from the equation you’ll start to see why Scholars are generally better when everything is running perfect or near perfect. But here are a list of what each class can do aside from heal.

White Mages offer:
- Own DPS
- Proshell (Magical and Physical Defense Up)
- Upfront AoE Damage
- Heavy, Stun, Sleep Ailments
- Displacement/Interrupt*
- Semi-Damage Mitigation
- 18% MAX HP Shield

* Fluid Aura can interrupt certain mob's abilities such as T9's Golems demolish, etc. Though it's risky, it's still something they can do to help if the group coordinates well enough.

Scholars offer:
- Own DPS
- Damage Mitigation*
- Double Shield (Stoneskin and Galvanize)**
- Disease (Slow and Healing Debuff) and Slow Ailments
- Raid-DPS Boost (Selene)
- Silence/Interrupt

* Much more powerful than a White Mage, but it's bolded as it can reduce Physical and Magical damage outputs by being able to reduce Mind and Intelligence. Furthermore, Eye for an Eye is on a lower cooldown.

** Two Shields makes players in a weakened state easier to heal as they wont die to things as fast.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

It seems to be a trend that whenever the then-latest Coil becomes farmable by some top-end FCs (instead of it being "work in the progress" -tier), people hop on the "SCHs are better at everything" -bandwagon. I will agree that you have a marginal edge in some situations by having dual-SCHs or even solohealing with a SCH instead of a WHM, but this is just a case of people knowing the fights through and through and the encounters being tank-healing-heavy with the occassional AOE-damage that a SCH can prepare for. In this kind of way, some of a WHM's raw healing power gets wasted, ie. with familiarity, and a SCH can shine more easily, especially with their DoT-fueled off-DPS and sustainability.

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Actually, without context reference, in a lot of way SCH have the flexibility edge over WHM, but like you said that is assumed that the fight is familiarized and the raid doesn't take avoidable damage. In such cases, Sacred Soil and Succor are mostly sufficient to absorb damage while the fairy bot and that whispering dawn will top everyone up before the next raid damage. The SCH can continue DPSing in Cleric Stance with quick, expandable Lustrate (3 stacks every 60mins in a familiarized fight is more than sufficient) for quick, large (or emergency) heals is another advantage over a long CD Benediction. And the fact that SCH doesn't need to switch back to healing stance to heal or use Lustrate/Sacred Soil - that's another flexibility. All in all, as long as constant raid damage is not expected and you only need/want 1 healer, SCH is usually the choice.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

That being said...I honestly don't enjoy running stuff with another SCH - it's possible to synergize very well, but I feel like I can do my own thing easier if there is no one overlapping with me, hence a WHM compliments a SCH and their most common playstyles very well. It just is that simple: Regen uptime on the MT, AOE-heals of theirs with my support, 18% Stoneskins for the big buffering, enhanced Protect, the MND party-buff (that turns into an INT-advantage in Cleric's Stance, too). All of those are reasons I prefer healing with a WHM. Also, Savage Coil: the damage can be pretty ridiculous, especially in T6, so the raw healing output is definitely a lifesaver. More burst-healing-heavy content like that would be fun.

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I agree with you here. SCH doesn't synergize well with another SCH. I always prefer to heal with a WHM and let the WHM does the raid heal while I focus on tank and DPSing, while dropping succor and help a little when needed.

WHM can always synergize with another WHM though.

SCH doesnt synergize wel with another SCH ?

IMO when two SCHs communicate they trump WHMx2 and SCH-WHM.

Yes they dont have that raw healing potency in big chunks like WHMs do, but they have the benefits of a SCH x2. Where in a party where people know the fight is amazing. Eos and Selene as standard, this whole SCHs cant heal AOE damage is utter nonsense, AOE damage is scripted so a SCH can easily deal with it when needed.
Also the DPS a SCH brings doesnt heavily affect their healing thanks to lustrate and you only need to apply DOTs then they can tick while you heal, plus they can more efficiently AOE heal.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

White Mages offer:
- Own DPS
- Proshell (Magical and Physical Defense Up)
- Upfront AoE Damage
- Heavy, Stun, Sleep Ailments
- Displacement/Interrupt*
- Semi-Damage Mitigation
- 18% MAX HP Shield

* Fluid Aura can interrupt certain mob's abilities such as T9's Golems demolish, etc. Though it's risky, it's still something they can do to help if the group coordinates well enough.

Scholars offer:
- Own DPS
- Damage Mitigation*
- Double Shield (Stoneskin and Galvanize)**
- Disease (Slow and Healing Debuff) and Slow Ailments
- Raid-DPS Boost (Selene)
- Silence/Interrupt

* Much more powerful than a White Mage, but it's bolded as it can reduce Physical and Magical damage outputs by being able to reduce Mind and Intelligence. Furthermore, Eye for an Eye is on a lower cooldown.

** Two Shields makes players in a weakened state easier to heal as they wont die to things as fast.

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Several things that'll never or rarely gets used in practice (or simply bothers me for misinformation) according to your list of "pros".

On White mage's side:
Upfront AoE damage is generally used for trash mobs or dungeons and maybe garuda.
The displacement/interrupt is risky? How is it risky? All it takes is a few steps and you're out of the cleave range if you use it in said situation.

On Scholar's side:
"Superior damage mitigation", perhaps, but looking at the wrong abilities. A crit adloquium is definitely superior. Others are "ok" superior, if anything.
"Double shield", but how realistic is it to use it? If there's a white mage around, the white mage should do it. If you're "solo e-peening" an encounter, do you really have the leisure to waste 2,93-2,99 seconds to cast Stoneskin? And is it even necessary? Is there anything that would one-shot them even while weakened?
Disease is useful for Twintania's Dreadknights, if there is no summoner present. Otherwise, majority of the 8-man content that isn't trash is immune to the debuff as well as immune to slow.
Silent Dusk is there, yes, but reliability as well as usability is questionable and risky. Have a bard or paladin doing the silencing is far more reliable. (Any counter arguments, refer to your argument of "risky" on the fluid aura footnote).

I've read four pages of nonsense and the whole load of scholar bandwagoning/groupie community or white mage bashing. Scholars do have an edge in some 8-player content when the gear allows it. But so can a white mage with the proper gear and without running out of MP by properly planning their healing output. Playing scholar is a nightmare with the stereotype (and supposely current meta?) white mage where they are "reactive healers". Those kind of white mages are, simply put, trash. Scholars are more reactive than White Mage if anything with lustrate. White mages just get punished for it if they're playing as a reactive healer. Of course you can pre-shield someone before damage takes place. But why can't a white mage pre-cast so the damage is healed straight away? But likewise, playing with a scholar who thinks he/she can everything on his/her own (also a meta?) is a nightmare to play with.

tl;dr: The current White mage "meta" is just terrible and people need to learn to play White Mage properly and the Scholar "meta" (the soloist one) needs to acknowledge there's another healer out there and fully utilise each other's potential, rather than wasting it.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

snip.

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I'm sorry but at the end of the day, unless a continuous flow of AOE damage is coming SCH imo is generally better.

Selene silence is reliable, just know when to use it and micro manage your pet.....simple.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Selene silence is reliable, just know when to use it and micro manage your pet.....simple.

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It's not. Your fairy will auto-Embrace when someone dips sub-80% HP, micromanaging or not. I've lost count how many times some of our PLD/BRD have missed the Earthshock silence (mostly when progressing several months ago) and I've literally been camping it with a Obey'd Selene, just to backup silence it, only to find out my silence goes out at the moment we're all getting paralyzed, because someone took damage right before that happened and Selene had already queued up an Embrace.

It is not unreliable per se, but if I can't fire it out at a 100% certaintity (closer to 70-80% when backup silencing anyway, out of habit), it's not reliable with other outside factors contributing.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Several things that'll never or rarely gets used in practice (or simply bothers me for misinformation) according to your list of "pros"

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Not necessarily misinformation but more of my inability to ensure a 100% success rate in parallel thinking. I should have worded things differently, but I'll go through each of your points to clarify what I meant.

First up is White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Upfront AoE damage is generally used for trash mobs or dungeons and maybe garuda.

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Yes. Only reason it's there is because of Garuda even though you practically never use it in anything else due to better uses of your mana.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

The displacement/interrupt is risky? How is it risky? All it takes is a few steps and you're out of the cleave range if you use it in said situation.

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Oops. I left the word "risky" open to interpretation. It's risky for interrupting as it requires coordination and proper positioning of mechanics and the target foe as sometimes it can make things a little messy, especially in Turn 9 where my group doesn't have designated meteor spots so we sometimes have Golems a bit closer to things than we want to. So I guess I'll correct myself and say it's somewhat risky unless your group is fully coordinated, organized and failure rate is close to nothing.

And lol at cleaves! Totally forgot about them, but I don't count that as a risk as cleaves are easily avoided by placing yourself at the side or behind.

Scholar Points

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

"Superior damage mitigation", perhaps, but looking at the wrong abilities. A crit adloquium is definitely superior. Others are "ok" superior, if anything.

"Double shield", but how realistic is it to use it? If there's a white mage around, the white mage should do it. Is it even necessary? Is there anything that would one-shot them even while weakened?

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Superior damage mitigation should've been lumped with Galvanize + Stoneskin. Weakness is also a specific scenario, but prepping for an unavoidable raid-wide (Stoneskin) AoE to reduce the amount of GCD required to heal the group up before the next unavoidable AoE buys you more time, but this is really specific to the transition of Phase 3 to Phase 4 in Turn 9.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I've read four pages of nonsense and the whole load of scholar bandwagoning/groupie community or white mage bashing. Scholars do have an edge in some 8-player content when the gear allows it. But so can a white mage with the proper gear and without running out of MP by properly planning their healing output.

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I've yet to bash White Mages. I've only stated that I prefer Scholars over White Mages when it comes to solo-healing content as they sacrifice raw healing power for utility. When content doesn't need the raw healing power of a White Mage, a Scholar is better because it boosts raid-DPS while providing enough heals and damage mitigation to go through a fight.

Also, I'm fully aware the White Mages can solo-heal content as well. I'm strictly speaking for raid optimization rather than "Scholars > White Mages."

P.S: Solo healing in my opinion is more of a fun "challenge mode" rather than an so-called "e-peen" contest. Those who do wish to brag about it... well... That's more of the person's personality rather than the act of solo healing :)

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Originally Posted by Parawill

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In the situation where you are solo-healing and others do mess up. Yes, your arguments do have merit. Or the very least, you're making more sense than a certain other poster in this topic.

To call it e-peen contest or challenge mode is really up to the player, yeah. But is it more a group achievement or an individual achievement? To be able to solo heal anything, everything needs to be executed perfectly. When everything is executed perfectly, most 8-player raid can be solo tanked and -healed. I personally wouldn't start solo healing just to prove anything and waste time for 8 players worth.

The "white mage bashing" is more of a general thing in this topic. Perhaps not from you specifically, but with most posts in this topic. It basically comes down to "Scholar or de-install" if you read between the lines (in both group as well as "challenging" content)

not sure if this is a factor since i havent reached/obtained the best gear

but isnt a max ilvl whm just going to overheal anything? past a certain point they already heal for buttloads of damage.. sch adlo's succors still scale even beyond max HP?

dual mitigation (shield / SS ) is not as situational as it seems, i've lost count on how many WHM ive been healing with that didnt know how to SS mid fight. and lets not forget that you can add mitigation from sacred soil just in case

SCH carries undergeared tanks better than WHM does.. and we all know that progression runs matter the most

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Originally Posted by Abigs

dual mitigation (shield / SS ) is not as situational as it seems, i've lost count on how many WHM ive been healing with that didnt know how to SS mid fight

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That, right there. Textbook bad white mage meta. If there's nothing to heal, at least prevent it by casting a stoneskin or precast a Cure (II) if you know a big hit is coming. Sadly, it's a fact that most white mages don't do either of these two. In the situation where the white mages -does- stoneskin together with a scholar's adlo results into a time efficient as well as mp efficient damage mitigation, where a scholar or white mage alone cannot achieve.

Also, a white mage at "max ilvl" could plan the healing better or spam stoneskin more frequent (depending on the build). But be it overhealing or better planning. Overhealing doesn't wipe a group. Reactive healing that results into being a step too late, does. (see other post about the bad white mage meta)

When people talk about WHM being reactive, I tend to assume that they are referring to how WHM healing spells are unnecessary except when damage is being incurred. That isn't to say that Stoneskin isn't a useful mitigation option or that WHMs shouldn't anticipate damage and act accordingly. The main difference with SCH healing is that, if you predict the fight correctly, you can plan further in advance with more preemptive shielding and even SS if really necessary.

1 issue that must be clarified is :

WHM's mana consumption is not a cons, it's their mechanic.

Players love to say this about scholars: "We may not have stronger heals compared to WHM, but we got mitigation to counter this weakness!!"

On the other hand, people say this about WHM : "Although we got better raw healing powers, we do not have enough mp to use them :("
When the truth is that it should be : "We may have lower MP to play with compared to SCH, but every heal we perform is powerful".

oranges and apples...its so funny to see ppl ,who have no idea how both classes work, talking stupid shit lol.

Sch is my main, but I play both. I had to inform a fellow player who found whm healing 'tedious' and boring as compared to a sch: "You need a different mindset when healing as whm; they're power healers. There's no pet to help you heal so you can try to go lazy mode."

Their protect is fine, as it's rare for 4-mans to really need the magic-blocking of the white mage protect, and their stoneskin is also fine (it's only an 8% difference, which is what, one more hit? Usually not even that).

The ideal group will have a scholar and a white mage in it, both classes are great at max. (Pre-level 40 though, there's no contest that white mage is better. Simply because scholar leveling pace is whack...)

interestingly though, once you are lvl 50 and get lvl synced, SCH is a fair bit better in the low levels, because Eos can heal while you throw out extra dps. I can easily finish all of the pre-30 dungeons on my SCH without coming out of cleric's stance once.

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Originally Posted by DarkerOrange

interestingly though, once you are lvl 50 and get lvl synced, SCH is a fair bit better in the low levels, because Eos can heal while you throw out extra dps. I can easily finish all of the pre-30 dungeons on my SCH without coming out of cleric's stance once.

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Yes, SCH is ridiculous when synced for low-level content, which clearly wasn't designed with the healing fairies in mind :P

I never had an issue doing dungeons at-lvl when I was a new player making SCH my first 50. The only inconvenience is that Leeches isn't available until 40, but there aren't that many truly nasty status effects in play before then. The poison in Brayflox isn't that big of a deal, and the DoT applied occasionally by the sandworm mini-boss in Cutter's can be healed through if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

When people talk about WHM being reactive, I tend to assume that they are referring to how WHM healing spells are unnecessary except when damage is being incurred. That isn't to say that Stoneskin isn't a useful mitigation option or that WHMs shouldn't anticipate damage and act accordingly. The main difference with SCH healing is that, if you predict the fight correctly, you can plan further in advance with more preemptive shielding and even SS if really necessary.

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great healers heal proactively and know when to switch on the cleric stance