Isnt it time that white mages got buffed to level of Schoalr already?

1. WHM/SCH
-I am not as familiar with the SCH role as I am as WHM
-I do not have an i100 SCH book
-Limit Break Bar would charge slower although it is unlikely this would be an issue
-I doubt I personally could overcome these issues in time for raid tomorrow so we will likely remain as is
-There are sections of T7 where burst heals after getting shriek is necessary WHM truly shines during these sections of the fight.

2. Our issues are predominantly mechanical, it's been shown that T6/7 can be cleared in i90 gear and we both far surpass that. That's not to say there isn't an issue of balance.

3. PvP is an issue but I really don't want to go there with this discussion. Coil is intrinsically different than Primals, Primals are side content they are not the focus of end game progression. To have 1 class outshine another to the point where some groups are rolling double SCH (or even solo heal scholar) in what is considered the highest difficulty content of the current game build is troubling.

4. This Scholar came back after a 6 week hiatus, we gave her the the crash course on these 2 fights and this is her second week back with us, you can be damn sure with 4X the experience in these fights that I am pushing my class to have maximum heal up time without jeopardizing pulling hate or failing petrification mechanics/blighted. And yes for all content not just coil. I holyspam/dps whenever I can get away with it.

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

1. WHM/SCH
-I am not as familiar with the SCH role as I am as WHM
-I do not have an i100 SCH book
-Limit Break Bar would charge slower although it is unlikely this would be an issue
-I doubt I personally could overcome these issues in time for raid tomorrow so we will likely remain as is
-There are sections of T7 where burst heals after getting shriek is necessary WHM truly shines during these sections of the fight.

2. Our issues are predominantly mechanical, it's been shown that T6/7 can be cleared in i90 gear and we both far surpass that. That's not to say there isn't an issue of balance.

3. PvP is an issue but I really don't want to go there with this discussion. Coil is intrinsically different than Primals, Primals are side content they are not the focus of end game progression. To have 1 class outshine another to the point where some groups are rolling double SCH (or even solo heal scholar) in what is considered the highest difficulty content of the current game build is troubling.

4. This Scholar came back after a 6 week hiatus, we gave her the the crash course on these 2 fights and this is her second week back with us, you can be damn sure with 4X the experience in these fights that I am pushing my class to have maximum heal up time without jeopardizing pulling hate or failing petrification mechanics/blighted. And yes for all content not just coil. I holyspam/dps whenever I can get away with it.

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1. So you're saying that in your groups case that you on WHM is still very 'needed'. And you're holding your weight=no problem
2. You'll all get more effecient with practice. And better geared at the same time.
3. Le Sigh....a good WHM in PvP with a party that is even semi-decent is a formidable force in PvP. The main difference is that a SCH doesn't need as much player skill as a WHM to win. And the pet messes with weaker/less experienced parties. But WHM isn't any less potent in PvP.
-If measuring Healing output: win or lose my WHM vs. a SCH does typically at least 15% more healing over the course of the match...win OR lose.
-If measuring Survival: A geared/skilled WHM is very 'tanky' and not worth the effort to take down unless the group zerging them is geared/skilled better than them. SCH is more squishy.
-If measuring DPS: SCH has the advantage...but it's typically not much higher than the WHM's enough to warrant too much thought
-If measuring Debuffs:WHM wins sure, sch has DoTs and some status aliments, but WHM has Repose, Heavy, Stun and Knockback/bind.

The main problem is Figuring out How to WHM in PvP is far more difficult and a much steeper learning curve than figuring out how to SCH (because the fairy on Auto is still more skilled/useful than a derp WHM).

4. So you start by saying that you don't have the gear/skill to SCH....and then say you're being 'bested' by a SCH that has been out of game for 6 weeks.
-A 6 week break means nothing btw....not like in that time the role of SCH got new actions/abilities to learn or the game changed dramatically
-It's point blank easier 'learning' a battle with 7 others who already aced it than learning it with 7 others who also are learning it.
-You are saying this like the SCH is NOT pushing themselves to the roles max potential. Which I doubt is true...but if it IS, why are you keeping someone on the team who's not working as hard as everyone else?

Again, you're really citing 2 content battles. Who cares if the SCH had more room for error, and out-healed you? Who really cares?
-Having 2 SCH is in many cases, not as effective as 2 WHM's. WHM's can stack regens/medica II's. SCH's can't stack shields.
-Having SCH/WHM is still the most balanced.
-Most of the time when people ride 2 SCH's they do it to have a psudo DPS. They aren't quite ready to commit to a solo healer strategy, but are sure they don't need a 'full-heal' team.
-Just because some people can do content solo healer does not= everyone can. Most groups haven't even entered....let alone cleared T6+ And when they do, they'll need 2 healers....and for less skilled teams WHM holds even more value (more reactive/forgiving of party boo-boos).

So yes, being a good WHM takes more 'skill' and is a steeper learning curve than a good SCH....but that doesn't mean WHM is broken or less potent. And expecting every single battle to be 'tuned' in such a way where WHM is the 'best' or even 100%=to SCH is simply not realistic. Just like Melee groan on some battles, and Ranged are the kings, so too will there be content where SCH>WHM or MRD>PLD. It's okay as long as all roles can get it done....which atm they can. Your team is winning just fine with SCH/WHM.

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

Surprisingly, WHM's biggest strength is actually the Direct Heals. It's the reason Cure 3 exists, and Benediction

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For the sake of comparison, let's call Lustrate a 75% heal with a 1 minute CD. Benediction is 100% on a 5 minute CD. One of those sounds better than the other...

Calling WHM "reactive" is misleading; limiting overhealing is important, but persistent, multi target healing is where a WHM shines. On a fight like Levi Ex you can easily roll Medica II and pop Regen as necessary during dash phases. Regen is excellent to keep on ranged on a fight like Turn 7 as well; damage is consistent enough in both instances to where overheal enmity rarely becomes a major concern.

To me WHM who are not mastering their HoTs are no different than SCH who mismanaged shields. I think the learning curve is steeper for a WHM; margins for error are just slimmer. SCH has a lot of slop with shields, WHM wants HoTs to tick off ahead of potential aggro.

Honestly, there are two changes I want to see made to white mage and scholar. Other than the two following adjustments, I've very happy with white mage and scholar.

White mage, I want Shroud of Saints to be percentage based on your stats/gear vs. a flat amount.

Scholar, I want Sacred Soil to reduce damage by 20% since it has such a short duration.

Honestly, I think WHM/SCH are fine. I've gotten both to 50 and I prefer SCH because of the play style, not because of the fact that it's "more powerful" or anything like that. My best friend prefers WHM, which makes it really fun when we raid in tandem on healers because the two complement each other so well. Succor + Medica II on the entire party? Yes please! I don't get the hate for one or the other. They're both great.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Its starting to become obvious to even the diehard scholars who deny the gap between the two classes when 4 out of 5 pvp teams have a scholar over a white mage and Turn 6+ BC groups running double scholar on the high end guilds....

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Did you mean diehard WHM (but not SCH) who deny the gap... ?^^;
If those SCH do not realise that, I think they would go as WHM?

When it comes to healing.. Whm > Sch.
I'm not surprised that 2 Schs working together in T6, they are healers after all. But, white mages can do really good alone.
No one should underestimate white mages. SE nerfed white mages for being too powerful last year. Now, they still shine good.

Also, you can tank content if you like a healer.
Medica/Medica II > Flash etc

I play both classes fairly often, though I am more comfortable with WHM because frankly I wouldn't trust Eos to tie her own shoelaces without blowing all her cooldowns and probably hanging the party with them, and I think they're about the same in terms of usefulness but with very different playstyles that make switching between them difficult. But there's a big difference between them that I think's been overlooked slightly.

SCH is amazing when you can predict things. I'm not referring to boss behaviour here (though that is also a thing you can predict) but rather of the behaviour of your party members. In high level content like Second Coil, you're going to be dealing with players who you can trust to be at a certain skill level. You're probably going to be playing with people who you know, whose playstyles you're familiar with. That, on top of the Second Coil mechanics favouring a lot of single target heals, is why scholars are doing better in second coil.

WHM is good at fixing bad situations quickly, and have a skillset built around that. Repose, slow, holy's stun, strong AoE heals on demand, two cooldowns based around instantly maximizing healing output, fluid aura on the one day a year that its effect proves useful instead of annoying and a 100% heal on a long cooldown. These are not tools for doing things efficiently, they're tools for fixing things that have gone horribly, horribly wrong. They're things to burst out when too many mobs have been pulled, everyone's standing in orange circles, there are some caster enemies over there that are out of range of the aoe hate and the tank's not too concerned about picking them up, both DPS have blood for blood up and are getting hit by things and you have about three mobs that think white mages sound delicious.

Scholars shine when they can help a brilliant group reach its potential. White mages shine when they can help a struggling group overcome their difficulties. The reason you're seeing a lot of the higher-end guilds run two scholars, beyond the simple 'second coil's mechanics favour them' is because those guilds have coil teams made up of people who know and trust each other and have put hours and hours into practising these fights.

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Originally Posted by oglops

frankly I wouldn't trust Eos to tie her own shoelaces without blowing all her cooldowns and probably hanging the party with them

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If this is a worry you have, it's because you're not micromanaging Eos like you're supposed to. If your pet is behaving like an idiot, it's your own fault, not the class's.

The ONLY change either class needs is Presence of Mind needing a buff. The 2 jobs are fine. I play both a lot.

what is Schoalr ? new class..how to unlock?

Main bard but second is white mage. I can say the best work as a white mage that I do is when I don't heal. Specifically when I know not to heal - I'll just reapply stoneskin on people as I go along. For most damage I love having a SCH in the group since they get a bit less AoE heals for that minimal starting damage most of the time. And I can regen any that take too much. What I know I can do is keep a party alive when shit hits the fan and mass AoE healing in loads is needed. Otherwise when things are going as intended a regen here and there solves the problem most of the time.

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Originally Posted by oglops

Scholars shine when they can help a brilliant group reach its potential. White mages shine when they can help a struggling group overcome their difficulties. The reason you're seeing a lot of the higher-end guilds run two scholars, beyond the simple 'second coil's mechanics favour them' is because those guilds have coil teams made up of people who know and trust each other and have put hours and hours into practising these fights.

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So WHM is for parties that suck and SCH is for pro groups. Got it :D

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Originally Posted by Pots_Talos

So WHM is for parties that suck and SCH is for pro groups. Got it :D

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Scholars probably never reach the level of white mages..
It's only WHM who can save entire party from the wipe situation.
Divine seal + presence of mind + medica spam... Swiftcast-medica2.
It's insanely powerful and really quick.

Total apples to oranges comparison RE Lustrate vs. Benediction. Bene is a full heal without cost, only cooldown. Lustrate has a CD and scales off of target hp. It's safe to say that if a SCH is at 500/5000 life and there is 3 in unavoidable damage coming in the next 1.5s that Lustrate won't save the SCH but Bene will. This could mean the difference between a wipe and a successful kill.

This isn't to say Lustrate sucks. Rather, Lustrate and Bene have two different purposes and therefore can't be compared in such a way.

3k* in unavoidable damage. Stupid phone.

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Originally Posted by oglops

Scholars shine when they can help a brilliant group reach its potential. White mages shine when they can help a struggling group overcome their difficulties. The reason you're seeing a lot of the higher-end guilds run two scholars, beyond the simple 'second coil's mechanics favour them' is because those guilds have coil teams made up of people who know and trust each other and have put hours and hours into practising these fights.

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This guy hasn't been in much second coil huh...

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Scholar+pet is now churning out heals that is double the strength of cure two and not many fights in the game requires burst medica use as it did in turn 1. Its more about burst on a few targes which the scholar can patch up way quicker then a white mage utilizing pet on one target and physick on another target. Lets not even get started on damage mitigation/superior utility and cooldowns/superior dps in form of dots which gives scholar time to continue to heal and almost unlimited mana.

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WHM is already awesome. All they're missing is Reraise.... :)

Oh and please make Benny suck less :x. 5min CD is just to dang long considering a DS cure II crit heals just as much.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Honestly I would not understand why you would perfer a white mage over a scholar. White mage has a superior burst aoe group heal and an aoe damage stun. Minus niche tactics like turn 2 enrage timer it is inferior to a scholar in almost every way. I love my main scholar but even I see the shear difference in power between my class and the weaker white mage for 90% of content in this game so far. It favors scholar so much it is silly. Easy to figure out patterns make reactive white mage healing obselete on even aoe healing when a sacred soil and a preshield spread of aldo and succor win out.

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You're running with some bad WHMs. The job is all about timing.