Amazing system, FFXIV taking FPS hit. Why?

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Originally Posted by Sorel

iMac's aren't cheap. So I would guess that a person who gets one really needs it. So after getting one, for them to justify getting a PC gaming rig with enough peripherals to make FFXIV sing ... that may be too much financial commitment just for one game.

Just a guess though.

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Precisely. If that person had read the thread, they would know (because I list) the reasoning behind everything.

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Originally Posted by Coldfire

I would download the newest drivers from amd.com directly and install them. If that didn't work, I would open the window, take the computer and throw it as far as I could :P
(That's why I have to buy a new computer every 2 years I guess)
But in the first place a gamer never buys an all-in-one PC. We either buy a console or build the system ourselves and then mod it until it looks like an alien spaceship or a taru-head.

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Unfortunately that's not an option here lol

I tried the drivers, and they are just mega-fail. It's pretty straightforward. You tell a program to install, it should install, not give a runaround whereby you have to install something else after the initial install only to discover the program is outdated even though what you downloaded was most recent. lol

I don't really see how the fact that the hardware is a Mac machine would have a bearing on these problems. It's running Windows exactly how windows is supposed to run. My confusion continues to compound upon itself :(

Unfortunately, hardware does matter. If it didn't, you would be able to install MacOS out of the box onto a non-mac PC. However, you cannot. Also, if hardware didn't matter, then you would be able to install windows on a Mac WITHOUT bootcamp; however, you cannot (well, you can use something other than bootcamp; point is you can't just pull a Windows 7 Ultimate DVD out of the box and install it on a mac).

This had to do in part with the drivers for the system that you aren't usually aware of. Just popping into the system devices related to my motherboard... two ACPI devices, Composite Bus Enumerator, DMA Controller, two audio controllers, HPE Timer, PCI Bridge... I could go could go on.

The short version; hardware matters.

Which goes back to your question about why your upgrade could be causing problems. You upgraded to a GPU that has an M on it, that means mobility. That means there is most likely some integration between the GPU and the IGP. For nVidia cards on a PC based laptop this is called Optimus, and that integration can be turned off. On an iMac, however, we don't know if that integration can be turned off. It is entirely possible you don't even HAVE and IGP that is separate from your AMD Mobility device - they could be integrated in an Apple-only-way that is very proprietary. Also take into account that this integration between IGP/GPU even on a "newer" models can be less performance than older model. Such is the sin of "moble" "advanced" hardware.

This, I believe, is most likely.

On top of that, when it comes to laptops and all-in-ones, AMD has a history of partnering with various manufacturers in a way that forces the manufacturers to maintain their own drivers. For example, my Toshiba Laptop. I cannot simply download the latest Catalyst drivers from AMD and run them. In fact, they refuse to install (even if I try to force install them manually) because they are not the Toshiba branded drivers (which are v.8.something; I believe the current CC version is 11.something?)

So, to wrap it up, if you were on a "real" mac you would have less issues. Even PC users who use all-in-one PCs have issues. This tech forum is full of people looking for help and having the same issue... with PCs instead of macs. If you have to keep the mac, but can afford to upgrade, you need a MacPro. Like PC users, switching to a non-all-in-one design is ultimately the best bet. At the very least, you have a real video card in a real tower, and might find compatibility with Windows 7 a bit better.

Well it sounds like that mobility card is just causing issues. Unfortunately MacPro is too expensive for me, it's mostly a whole lot of stuff I just don't need (to get the same processor, etc, it would cost me over $4000) and a lower graphics card. I think my best option would be to just deal until they release another version (next year or 2013) that doesn't use an M-grade card.

My old system didn't have problems, it just wasn't performing graphically as well as I wanted, so I saw the upgrade and thought "why the hell not". I never expected Apple to upgrade their processor etc but DOWNGRADE their GPU in the new iMac models. By what you're telling me, anything Mobility is really a downgrade. Unfortunately though, I don't really have another option right now since you can't select different GPUs when you customize the iMac. My graphics do look pretty good now, so I am ok waiting a year or two for an upgrade again, I had just hoped for better results from this card than I'm getting is all. Thought maybe it could be something simple like a driver fix, etc.

On a side note, I'm also fairly certain that Fraps is just plain broken. Based on the premise that windowed and full screen modes have a considerable FPS difference, I conducted some tests. Normally I run windowed, and I was using fair settings and seem to be running around 25 FPS average. So I tried full screen... Same FPS! From everything I've read in the forums and elsewhere, the difference between windowed and full screen should be a huge FPS hit... In conclusion I think I'm probably getting better FPS than I think I am, Fraps just sucks. lol

Actually the HD 6970M is as fast as a normal HD 6850 and is pretty highend. The problem lies elsewhere. You should be able to play the game in high settings with that card.

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Originally Posted by Coldfire

Actually the HD 6970M is as fast as a normal HD 6850 and is pretty highend. The problem lies elsewhere. You should be able to play the game in high settings with that card.

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Currently:

- 2560x1440 (this can't be changed or everything looks like ass, not sure why)
- Windowed
- General Drawing 8
- Background Drawing 3 or 4 (maybe my eyes suck but I notice no difference between 3 and 5)
- Shadow Detail standard or high (same as above, no difference between standard and highest)
- 8xQ MSAA
- Texture Detail high
- Texture Filtering highest
- Cutscene Effects on
- Ambient Occlusion off
- Hardware Mouse on

Additional Notes:
- All settings returned to defaults in ATI CCC
- Fraps results 20-30 FPS with occasional lag spikes

Does that seem reasonable? If not, then my quest continues... lol
There has got to be something I can do besides "buy a PC" or "upgrade your hardware again".

I both agree and disagree with Coldfire. When Celeron chips first came out, they were as fast as the Pentium chips they were based on; however they performed poorly in comparison. For one, they lacked on-die cache. Point is, MOBILE chips of any kind are built around power saving, space saving, and heat saving; as such there are fundamental differences in HOW they operate. I'm not say it is a -bad- chip, I'm saying it is a -mobile- chip, and they are -not- made for gaming (usually they are marketed towards HD video and artists in my experience). You will notice most gaming laptops have full on GPUs, not mobile version of the GPUs.

As for FRAPS in windowed mode; I suffer about a 5FPS hit in cities if I switch from full screen to windowed, and a 0-2FPS hit outside of cities between full and windowed mode. How much FPS you loose varies very, very, widely between systems based on your card, driver version, number of monitors, etc., etc. In and of itself no change doesn't mean anything. It is suggest to switch to full screen because the majority of cards with the majority of drivers on the majority of machines it helps to a noticeable degree (though not necessarily to a significant one).

Also, at that resolution, it occurs to me that you aren't necessarily out of range of expected performance. For one, most people who are seeking optimal performance do run full screen, and they run at at 1080p (1920x1080) on General Draw quality 8. They do this because 1.) that's the native resolution and 2.) GDQ 8 sets the screen buffer equal to the screen resolution; that is, it draws the screen at the same size as the resolution and displays it.

By setting the draw quality to 9, the buffer is increased to 1.5x the resolution, and then shrunk to fit the screen (providing a smoother display through blending). This causes a noticeable hit to FPS.

By running at draw quality 10, the buffer is increased to 2x the solution, and the hit to FPS is even more extreme.

Now look at the numbers:
General Draw Quality 8 at 1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 (number of pixels drawn)
General Draw Quality 8 at your resolution = 2560x1440 = 3,686,400
General Draw Quality 9 at 1080p = 2880x1620 = 4,665,600

The thing to note here is that while your performance should not be expected to be as low as running a 1080p on GDQ9, there is a significant difference between your setup and what (most) people are running. And to top it off, it is done on a mobility. If you want proof that Mac hardware is decent, look no further than this. People have been overtaxing their GPUs and giving themselves heating and power issues running settings like that on PCs ;)

Anyhow, I have a pet Mac expert that I talk to on the first Friday of every month (and the significance of that day for 1,000 geek points anyone...?); I'll poke him and see if he has any super secret mac-head techie tricks in his back pocket that might shed a little more light on the issue.

As far as your data is concerned:

Looks like in theory I'd be running much better and the graphics would probably look about the same if I was able to do 1920x1080, but for whatever reason, every time I switch to that instead of my computer's native (2560x1440) the FFXIV display is crap, even at character selection screen (and believe me, I tried tons of different settings coupled with 1080p resolution to get a different result).

What you say about the Mobile chips makes a lot of sense to me, gaming is not the top priority on a Mac (they are working on improving it with each year though), HD video and graphic artistry (that's me!) are where it's at. This totally explains the fact that they chose a Mobility card and it's still considered an upgrade.

Maybe Fraps isn't lying to me then, based on your experiences. I doubt I would notice a 2-5 FPS hit difference from windowed and full screen, especially since I only did comparative testing for maybe 10 mins. I was expecting something far greater, like a 25-50% FPS drop from full screen to windowed.

Your post overall has given me a much needed wave of calm lol, and I greatly appreciate you asking your friend about tips/tricks in my situation. Please let me know what you discover! :)

Also, I don't get the geek reference of the first friday of each month, sorry :( lol

EDIT: Oh and if either you or your friend know of a good way to monitor/manipulate my GPU temps/fan speeds whilst running Windows 7, that would also be appreciated. I've tried HWMonitor and the ATI CCC, both of which are either inaccurate (HWM said my GPU was running at like 90 degrees after maybe 2hrs, no friggin way) or not functioning properly (CCC won't let me control my fan speed even with AMD Overdrive unlocked and it reads as always "0% fan speed").

For Windows 7 I recommend HWMonitor by Cupid. It isn't the best display style, but it is small, low memory footprint, accurate data, and most importantly doesn't slow FF14 down.

If you were running 14 while using HWMonitor, yes, it is entirely possible things were running very hot. They usually do while running 14. It was that very issue that made us techies realize that there was an issue with running GDQ above 8. Also, is that C or F? Big difference there. ;) I don't know if HWMonitor lets you control your fan speed though. Also, I don't know if there are differences in mac hardware that will throw off those readings or not. It isn't out of the range of possibility.

Just for reference, I run at about 69C on GDQ8, and run about 79C on 9; remember that you're at like, GDQ 8 and 1/2 relatively speaking because of the increased resolution. Also, with a mobility chip I wouldn't be surprised if some of the function of the GPU is shoved off onto the processor; I don't know enough about ATI Mobility chips to say for certain, but that could also explain some of the increased heat. Someone more experienced with ATI could probably answer that better than I.

I was running it while on FFXIV, it just seemed very hot to me in a very short amount of time. I believe the highest was 88C. I've heard that Mac stuff can run hotter than usual and still be fine, but that seemed high to me. I also need to give it a try using my new settings. For the record, HWMonitor doesn't let you control fan speed. I'd like to controlling this because I seriously believe my fan speed is not operating correctly whilst in Windows.

88c is not too bad for an all-in-one system running 14 at that res. Its hot for sure, but not system breaking. Intel's website can tell you the recommended and/or maximum

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

88c is not too bad for an all-in-one system running 14 at that res. Its hot for sure, but not system breaking. Intel's website can tell you the recommended and/or maximum

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Yay! I spent some time looking for something that would give me an idea of recommended/max temps but didn't really get far... That should help, thank you!

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Originally Posted by Coldfire

ATI drivers were not the best in the past but AMD does their job quite well. The problem lies with Intel and Apple. Intel always had bad IGP drivers and Apple just has no clue how to handle the current highend hardware. The best hardware is useless without a working software system.

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Originally Posted by Coldfire

That's why I hate mac... if something doesn't work it's impossible to fix xD

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Please try not to spread uneducated rabble like this. Macs handle current high-end hardware just as well as any PC, and they're a lot more customizable and upgrade-friendly than they used to be. OSX is what Microsoft tried to do with Windows 7, and came fairly close. You can't knock Apple for building upon their own excellent OS (and OSX is excellent). At least they give you the option to dual boot now for those days you want to play games. Bootcamp runs Windows flawlessly, and games just as well, so I don't see why you'd have any sort of complaint with it.

MacPros are basically PC's. MacBooks are like any other laptop (but better in terms of functionality). iMacs are like the older Macs, but you can still upgrade virtually everything on it.

FWIW, I only have a MacBook. The rest of my computers at home are custom PC's that I build. I just don't like it when people knock something they know little about.

There's a good reason I have this guy on my iggy :D
Not even gonna bother to read it.

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Originally Posted by Capita

Please try not to spread uneducated rabble like this. Macs handle current high-end hardware just as well as any PC, and they're a lot more customizable and upgrade-friendly than they used to be. OSX is what Microsoft tried to do with Windows 7, and came fairly close. You can't knock Apple for building upon their own excellent OS (and OSX is excellent). At least they give you the option to dual boot now for those days you want to play games. Bootcamp runs Windows flawlessly, and games just as well, so I don't see why you'd have any sort of complaint with it.

MacPros are basically PC's. MacBooks are like any other laptop (but better in terms of functionality). iMacs are like the older Macs, but you can still upgrade virtually everything on it.

FWIW, I only have a MacBook. The rest of my computers at home are custom PC's that I build. I just don't like it when people knock something they know little about.

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if its so awesome how come he cant play FFXIV

Don't bother starting an argument with him. He has no clue what he's talking about and is only here to flame instead of offering support. I'd rather like to keep this part of the forum clean as people are searching it for help. Maybe SE should make a sticky FAQ of all the solutions <.<

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

if its so awesome how come he cant play FFXIV

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Could be a number of things. I highly doubt it's strictly Mac-specific. My MacBook plays the game just fine on regular settings, with 30-40 in town and 50-60 in fields. That's on a laptop. My brother's MacPro runs the game just as well as my PC with an i7 920 and GTX 480. 45-50 in town, 60 in the field.

My guess is the huge resolution. That's a lot of pixels for any single card to be pushing around in this game. His native resolution is almost like running 1920x1080 with General Drawing set to 9 permanently. I personally don't know anyone who can run FFXIV at 2560x1440 resolution, PC or not, and manage the same frames as someone running 1920x1080.

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Originally Posted by Coldfire

Don't bother starting an argument with him. He has no clue what he's talking about and is only here to flame instead of offering support.

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Oh, I remember you now. You're the idiot who thought FFXIV only used 2 cores.

And I am helping. I'm helping this guy by showing him not to listen to clueless people such as yourself, who are only here to give him the wrong idea about his system because of some bias. A bias, might I add, you have no business being biased about due to your lack of knowledge of it.

I see merit in what you guys are saying, but the odd question still stands about my native resolution.

Why is it that if I adjust the FFXIV resolution to ANYTHING other than my display's native (2560x1440) then the game immediately looks like crap, regardless of the other settings? ; ;

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Originally Posted by Archadius

I see merit in what you guys are saying, but the odd question still stands about my native resolution.

Why is it that if I adjust the FFXIV resolution to ANYTHING other than my display's native (2560x1440) then the game immediately looks like crap, regardless of the other settings? ; ;

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Because resolutions lower than your native resolution means larger pixels. Think about a tiny picture that you try to zoom into. It loses quality because the number of pixels in the image aren't increasing to fit the screen. They're just stretching.

Can you post a screenshot of "crap". Eh I mean of the game on a different resolution. And did you try 720p?

Because it is an odd aspect ratio? I can only guess, and honestly I'm stumped. Just how bad does it look? Can you put the game in 1920x1080, take a screenshot, and then repeat with your native resolution so I can see the difference?

I'll take a couple screens @ 2560x1440 and @ 1920x1080 and post em when I get the chance tonight. It will just be the login screen, but even with that, HUGE difference.

Ok so I think I discovered what the problem was with the resolution being wonky.

It was because I didn't set my DESKTOP resolution to 1920x1080 as well as my FFXIV setting resolution. So FFXIV was running at 1920x1080 and my computer at 2560x1440. Made everything fuzzy and ugly. Problem is... With my settings on 1920x1080 EVERYTHING is fuzzy, including FFXIV lol. It's not as bad as with the mixmatched rez's but still pretty rough on the eyes. I don't wanna have to run my entire computer at 1920x1080 looking crappy to accommodate a "reasonable" FFXIV haha

Try 720p. Should scale well with your monitor.

go 1920x1080 and standard quality or one above. AA off, not worth having at high res imo. AO off.
Depth of field off. Texture quality and texture filtering at max.

Ok I'll try playing with those settings later and at the two resolutions above. Any solution to the issue of the whole screen being fuzzy at 1920x1080? (since it's supposed to be 2560x1440 I guess the comp doesn't like when you go too low?)

The problem is that the pixels on your monitor don't change. The image gets scaled and each pixel on the monitor shows like 0.75 pixels instead of 1 which ends in a blur/unclean effect.

over HD resolution are a pain for a lot of game...

We are talking about Work like resolution, not gaming res.

Plus consider that 6970M is not the real 6970 VGA.

Add Bootcamp + Win that cut a little % or fps (and sometimes have a little problem with driver)

And you have your problem



ah if you play at 2560x1440...you don't need AA

With 1920x1080P with 4x-AA you don't have aliasing....then you can set at 4x or less without problem


PS i see 88C...mmmmmmmm..My friend ..gaming with FFXIV from MacBookPRO encounter shut down due to overheat...pay attention......GPU/VGA intensive game trigger a lot of heat in all in one PC...88 is TOO MUCH for sandybridge you have

Intel, and hardware upgrade guys say that the termal daily limit is under 80C....you are out this temperature...

after this limit lifespan of processor drastically drop down