SE - Default 3rd Retainer before Fees

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Company Chest.

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Sure, let's all ask our FC to clear away a chest tab and give us exclusie access to it every time we have to take out a raptor hide from another character.

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Originally Posted by Delsai

Entitled much?

Seriously, why don't SE just pay you cash every time you log in?

This generation is doomed.

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It's not being entitled, it's about giving players the means to expand their own abilities and possibilities without charging them real money. Some games I know give you the means to do so, some of them are stupidly hard to accomplish or just so expensive that it's just almost impossible to get unless you scrape your way up slowly, but regardless, the option is there. The developers give you new items to look and go for, new items to craft but they also take into account that you'll need more space. So, they give you new craftable bags that has a bigger limit.

As some people say, they might as well charge us to raid, to get new crafting recipes and whatnot if they are going to charge us something that is going to affect the balance between people.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Yep you are correct! 815 is actually very generous of SE to the point that if any more space is needed for players I think it's only fair to charge a small fee for retainers

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Affiliating word "generous" with subscription based game makes me cry.

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Originally Posted by chocomaid

It's not being entitled, it's about giving players the means to expand their own abilities and possibilities without charging them real money. .

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You expanded your possibilities by paying a subscription - They already charge you real money. If $2 is that big of a deal, don't buy it, there's plenty who will and SE will succeed in making more money.

You...do remember SE is a business, right? If gamers didn't throw themselves at games like Farmville, pay for DLC and incompleted games and "early access" no company would see the profit.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You expanded your possibilities by paying a subscription - They already charge you real money. If $2 is that big of a deal, don't buy it, there's plenty who will and SE will succeed in making more money.

You...do remember SE is a business, right? If gamers didn't throw themselves at games like Farmville, pay for DLC and incompleted games and "early access" no company would see the profit.

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You pay the subscription to play the game. Anything you can buy outside of the game should be purely cosmetic items that will not affect your ability or anyone else's for that mater. Anything that will affect gameplay and unfair-real-money advantages over one another is another thing. People should have an equal amount of opportunity with the base amount you have to pay.

By your logic and other people's as well, SE may as well charge for "optional" extra jobs and classes right? Oh wait, that will be included in the game sooner or later, who knows, will it be free?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You expanded your possibilities by paying a subscription - They already charge you real money. If $2 is that big of a deal, don't buy it, there's plenty who will and SE will succeed in making more money.

You...do remember SE is a business, right? If gamers didn't throw themselves at games like Farmville, pay for DLC and incompleted games and "early access" no company would see the profit.

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agreed. I don't know any other group of people that will gripe and moan over two dollars as much as gamers do. Paying a sub doesn't mean your entitled to everything. That's like saying you wanna walk into a car dealership and you wanna pay a base model price to get car that's fully loaded with all upgrades. paying for a meal/drink and always expecting the largest size. seriously, most everything you buy in life can be found in tiered packages, with add ons, upgrades, whatnot. but I guess many gamers are to entitled to understand that.

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Originally Posted by KupoNuts

Affiliating word "generous" with subscription based game makes me cry.

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Does it really matter if it's subbed or not? Everyone's sub is merely giving you access to their servers and play the contents within nothing more. The 815 slots they give you is something they wanted to do, but now that they feel they need to expand their storage in the game (people obviously kept asking for more space so they are giving it), they need to charge a little.

However, if these extra retainers is linked with the Venture system, I won't let that slide on a personal level ( unless they implement it in a way no advantage is gained.)

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Originally Posted by Starlord

However, if these extra retainers is linked with the Venture system, I won't let that slide on a personal level ( unless they implement it in a way no advantage is gained.)

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that's a fairly fair point. if extra retainers means extra auction slots/ventures, that may be a bit of an imbalance (however slight).
if its just extra storage though, that's pretty much a reasonable 2 dollar fee for something pretty harmless.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Just buy the retainer if you need it. It's as simple as that. We already get TWO for free.

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You make a good point. They should probably charge us for the new Coil turns as well, I mean, we already have 5 of them - right?

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Originally Posted by cearka

that's a fairly fair point. if extra retainers means extra auction slots/ventures, that may be a bit of an imbalance (however slight).
if its just extra storage though, that's pretty much a reasonable 2 dollar fee for something pretty harmless.

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I don't see how it could be just storage. But we will see.
Apparently it's ok for people to voice their disagreement and beg to change that 360 Day Reward SE was offering. But not this.

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Originally Posted by cearka

agreed. I don't know any other group of people that will gripe and moan over two dollars as much as gamers do. Paying a sub doesn't mean your entitled to everything. That's like saying you wanna walk into a car dealership and you wanna pay a base model price to get car that's fully loaded with all upgrades. paying for a meal/drink and always expecting the largest size. seriously, most everything you buy in life can be found in tiered packages, with add ons, upgrades, whatnot. but I guess many gamers are to entitled to understand that.

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Your analogies are awful. How about: you pay for a car and the extended warranty, which includes free repairs at the dealership. Only, they give you the repairs for free and charge you an arm and a leg for the parts.


Or: You go to a restaurant and order a burger with the works. You assume it means Lettuce, tomato, onion, ketchup, mustard (or mayonnaise), etc. They give you that medium burger, plain, on a dry bun; Condiments cost 2 more dollars.

Those are the correct analogies. You go in thinking you are fully paying for something only to have the company cut corners to line their own pockets. companies made huge profits long before DLC or F2P was even a thing. Do not excuse greed simply because the companies want you to.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

You make a good point. They should probably charge us for the new Coil turns as well, I mean, we already have 5 of them - right?

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Your reaching aside, how is retainer's anywhere near close to end-game content? I really want to see the logic used.

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Originally Posted by Delsai

Entitled much?

Seriously, why don't SE just pay you cash every time you log in?

This generation is doomed.

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With plenty of players who will bend over and let companies like Square do whatever they please to you, you bet it is.

Three starting cities, 1 retainer per city as the baseline. That's how it should have been from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by 10TailBeast

With plenty of players who will bend over and let companies like Square do whatever they please to you, you bet it is.

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../1/17/Fist.png

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Your reaching aside, how is retainer's anywhere near close to end-game content? I really want to see the logic used.

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Assume two separate players, extra retainers that can sell and constant demand for the stuff they sell. One player with with two retainers, one with 3 (or more). Both players want to get this "X-item(s)" that will be crucial(but not mandatory) for end-game raiding progression. However, its costs, material wise and tips are up above the sky. They need to make money to acquire it. Both start selling the same stuff, player two however has a wider market, and more lee-way to undercut people. Player two also has extra retainers for venturing that will gain extra gil here and there. Player two will have more monopoly on the market compared to player one.

Player two gets the money s/he needed, while player one is still playing and selling.

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Originally Posted by chocomaid

It's not being entitled, it's about giving players the means to expand their own abilities and possibilities without charging them real money. Some games I know give you the means to do so, some of them are stupidly hard to accomplish or just so expensive that it's just almost impossible to get unless you scrape your way up slowly, but regardless, the option is there. The developers give you new items to look and go for, new items to craft but they also take into account that you'll need more space. So, they give you new craftable bags that has a bigger limit.

As some people say, they might as well charge us to raid, to get new crafting recipes and whatnot if they are going to charge us something that is going to affect the balance between people.

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How about instead of asking for a free hand out, you ask them to consider an extra retainer as a veteran reward then, that seems much more realistic.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

Your analogies are awful. How about: you pay for a car and the extended warranty, which includes free repairs at the dealership. Only, they give you the repairs for free and charge you an arm and a leg for the parts.


Or: You go to a restaurant and order a burger with the works. You assume it means Lettuce, tomato, onion, ketchup, mustard (or mayonnaise), etc. They give you that medium burger, plain, on a dry bun; Condiments cost 2 more dollars.

Those are the correct analogies. You go in thinking you are fully paying for something only to have the company cut corners to line their own pockets. companies made huge profits long before DLC or F2P was even a thing. Do not excuse greed simply because the companies want you to.

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Actually those analogies are wrong ... because ... THEY ALREADY GAVE YOU TWO RETAINER.

You have a choice and its not being forced on you at all, stop acting like a baby, either throw some of that crap you are hoarding or pay for an extra retainer.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

How about instead of asking for a free hand out, you ask them to consider an extra retainer as a veteran reward then, that seems much more realistic.

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It's not free if you're already paying for the game.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

How about instead of asking for a free hand out, you ask them to consider an extra retainer as a veteran reward then, that seems much more realistic.

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Are you seriously suggesting that STORAGE SPACE should be veteran award? Wow.

In other games crafters would just sell bigger bags which players would equip, but in this game you can't use bags, probably due to some stupid excuses such as "limited server capacity for which we need more than your subscription money to maintain".

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Originally Posted by Chasely

Or: You go to a restaurant and order a burger with the works. You assume it means Lettuce, tomato, onion, ketchup, mustard (or mayonnaise), etc. They give you that medium burger, plain, on a dry bun; Condiments cost 2 more dollars.

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No. The proper analogy would be ordering a double cheeseburger, asking for a third burger patty and then expecting the burger to still cost the same.

Everyone knows that a double cheeseburger only comes with two patties, that having three patties would be great, that even with just two patties the burger still tastes great and isn't losing out on anything major, and that if you really wanted a third patty it's worth the additional cost.

Not having that third patty doesn't ruin the meal. You've still got two meaty patties that fill you up. Could you be fuller? Sure. But if you want that extra of course it's going to come at a cost.

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Originally Posted by chocomaid

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You do realize sending your retainer venturing to get 7 eggs for example is far less efficient than going out and getting them yourself, as they stated (and we even seen) it could take 1-18 hours for far less than you can get in even 30 minutes.

Depending on congestion, a stack or more in an hour versus 21 eggs in 3 hours..which is more efficient? More power to you if you feel the difference between $2 is going to be so huge to the point 1 person can make more money than the other, but unless the amount you gain per venturing changes, someone who only has 2 won't lose such a huge profit over someone who has 3+ if the current economic trends continue, hell if anything undercutting will probably be more of an issue now.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You do realize sending your retainer venturing to get 7 eggs for example is far less efficient than going out and getting them yourself, as they stated (and we even seen) it could take 1-18 hours for far less than you can get in even 30 minutes.

Depending on congestion, a stack or more in an hour versus 21 eggs in 3 hours..which is more efficient? More power to you if you feel the difference between $2 is going to be so huge to the point 1 person can make more money than the other, but unless the amount you gain per venturing changes, someone who only has 2 won't lose such a huge profit over someone who has 3+ if the current economic trends continue, hell if anything undercutting will probably be more of an issue now.

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That would be fine of retainers were not going to get minions, and other items, exclusive to ventures.

So.. to everyone going "omg people expect handouts" and the like.. Something to probably keep in mind is this type of backlash when a feature you have to pay extra for is introduced into a sub based game is completely normal. The typical player that does a subscription, is doing so because they don't really like dealing with cash shops, or players getting actual benefits in game just cause they tossed extra money in.

I'm on that side of the fence.. I will never ever play a F2P game as my "main" because I dislike feeling nickel and dimed ($2.00 here, $1.00 there and so on). I like knowing that I'm paying a flat fee to get access to everything every other person has access to in game. That's really all there is to it. The only games I've really seen that sell storage space (outside of maybe FFXI) are all F2P. This is not standard for a sub based game so of course people are going to be upset and want other options. There might be a bit of entitlement going on, but it's only because there's also deviation from the industry standard for subscription models.. expectations being based on previous experience and all.

Not only that, but the ventures could very well prove a significant advantage.. or a minor one. Ventures are going to provide items unique to the ventures, meaning you can't go farm them. We don't yet know what those items are worth, or even used for. We do know they're suppose to be rare.. so it makes sense that if you have more retainers going for them, your chance at getting them goes up. So.. people can pay for a leg up.. which again, is what a lot of folks choose a sub to avoid.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

That would be fine of retainers were not going to get minions, and other items, exclusive to ventures.

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Dear god, you mean you finished your time machine and rather than immediately going back to stop Hitler you decided to check in and tell us all about the awesome stuff retainers can get through their ventures?

You monster.

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Originally Posted by PlanckZero

Dear god, you mean you finished your time machine and rather than immediately going back to stop Hitler you decided to check in and tell us all about the awesome stuff retainers can get through their ventures?

You monster.

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This is in the update notes... Go read them.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

And yet people are falling all over themselves for a 1 time use potion to be added to the mogstation for real money.



Yes, but where does it say it will offer GAME BREAKING AND CHANGING items? You know, to completely KILL THE BALANCE of the game if you don't buy additional retainers?

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The items are rare drops from high level ventures only. Having more retainers allows more ventures per day. An advantage does not need to break the game to still be an advantage. Also, this is just the beginning. All companies use minor things like this to determine how much they can push players later. Look at the 360 day reward. It's 50 free aetheryte teleports. That is exactly the kind of thing cash shops use.

Maybe SE will add those as well. Maybe they won't. But the more people buy form the cash shop, the more SE will add. It's simple business.

Say you had a lemonade stand and decided to sell cookies on the side: No one buys the cookies. do you continue to make them? No.

Say lots of people bought the cookies? Would you expand the number of cookies you sold, or would you say, "I think my cookies are selling well enough. I'll just stop there."?

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

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And yet people are falling all over themselves for a 1 time use potion to be added to the mogstation for real money.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

This is in the update notes... Go read them.

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Yes, but where does it say it will offer GAME BREAKING AND CHANGING items? You know, to completely KILL THE BALANCE of the game if you don't buy additional retainers?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

And yet people are falling all over themselves for a 1 time use potion to be added to the mogstation for real money.

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Right, it's cosmetic and has nothing to do with changing the gameplay, or giving people an advantage. Precedent has also been set for race/name/faction/server changes to be in a real money shop. Those things have historically not been offered for free, save for server transfers for extremely high pop servers that are having issues, or for servers that are being closed.

I'm not saying it makes sense, or even that it's right.. I'm saying I'm not surprised by the uproar because SE isn't doing what's considered normal for a sub based game. I, personally, dislike the extra retainers because of the venture system. That's really the only bit that gives those paying a viable leg up (and frankly, I don't care how small or large people think it is.. it's a leg up, doesn't have to be game breaking for me to dislike it). Others aren't going to like it for just being something additional to pay for when that same something has never been behind a pay wall in their previous sub based games.

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Originally Posted by Chasely

This is in the update notes... Go read them.

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And guess what, someone with 2 retainers will have access to the same exact minions and items as someone with 3 and having that third retainer won't give you more credits to initiate more ventures either.

This isn't "Hahaha if you want to participate in this content then give us more money! Otherwise no access for you!".

This is "Hey, if you want to spend a bit more then we'll give you this minor convenience that most people don't fully utilize anyway."

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Originally Posted by PlanckZero

And guess what, someone with 2 retainers will have access to the same exact minions and items as someone with 3 and having that third retainer won't give you more credits to initiate more ventures either.

This isn't "Hahaha if you want to participate in this content then give us more money! Otherwise no access for you!".

This is "Hey, if you want to spend a bit more then we'll give you this minor convenience that most people don't fully utilize anyway."

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Going by that logic experience boosts for gathering/crafting/grinding, and perhaps luck boosts (so that the item you're grinding for has a higher chance to drop) could also be sold in a cash shop. A leg up, even if it's just a minor convenience, is a leg up.. and lots of people avoid F2P, and choose subs instead, to avoid people being able to pay for a leg up.

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Originally Posted by PlanckZero

Dear god, you mean you finished your time machine and rather than immediately going back to stop Hitler you decided to check in and tell us all about the awesome stuff retainers can get through their ventures?

You monster.

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No Hitler means no World War 2, and without the war, America stays in the Great Depression even longer, the war was the start of women pushing into the workforce and equal rights, many technological and medical advances were made because of the war, and no Hitler means no Hitler cat memes.
Why do you hate America, women, advancement of human kind, and cats?

You monster.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

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Speaking for myself, the issue of hoarding in an MMO is something that has been re-enforced by dozens of other games. I've lost track of how many times a development team has goofed up and an item that is needed for crafting is removed from the loot tables. Other times it's been issues where a drop has been adjusted to be more rare. Or hell, look at what we have coming this week. Several items that can easily be acquired are going to have their delivery methods totally changed. There's just been too many instances where something that was as common as dirt suddenly becomes stupidly rare due to an error or a planned change.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

And yet people are falling all over themselves for a 1 time use potion to be added to the mogstation for real money.



Yes, but where does it say it will offer GAME BREAKING AND CHANGING items? You know, to completely KILL THE BALANCE of the game if you don't buy additional retainers?

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And what if it is "game breaking"?

I propose they make the output of 2 retainers doing VENTURE--no matter how many retainers a player may have-- be the DEFAULT retainer's output for all players, since everyone has 2 retainers by default. That way, no matter how "game breaking" venturing might be, all players will at least be on even footing.

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Originally Posted by KupoNuts

Are you seriously suggesting that STORAGE SPACE should be veteran award? Wow.

In other games crafters would just sell bigger bags which players would equip, but in this game you can't use bags, probably due to some stupid excuses such as "limited server capacity forwhich we need more than your subscription money to maintain".

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In other games you don't start off with 850 slots, my god people in here don't have the brains they were born with.

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Originally Posted by KupoNuts

So you basically assumed that everyone who just purchased the game instantly finds a FC and gets rights to chest access? :)

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850 is the amount of inventory you have when adding your personal inventory, 2 retainers (plus retainers selling space) and your armoury together. (thats not even taking into account your armoire at the Inn)

EDIT:- ooppss its 815.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

In other games you don't start off with 850 slots, my god people in here don't have the brains they were born with.

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So you basically assumed that everyone who just purchased the game instantly finds a FC and gets rights to chest access? :)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

In other games you don't start off with 850 slots, my god people in here don't have the brains they were born with.

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You're correct. In other games $15 gets you 8-10 characters on a server, which can all get to a bank with minimal effort (certainly without running any dungeons, many without even doing any quests, just running to the main city).. and which you can easily send items between via in-game mail.

I also fail to see how the number of slots you are given in games has anything to do with making you purchase extra in this game with real life cash as opposed to spending in game currency to upgrade it. Or how it has anything to do with being able to purchase things that increase your chances of getting rare items (how much they're worth we don't know yet) over people just paying a normal sub fee. Both those things (both buying extra inventory space with real cash, and being able to purchase something that gives an advantage to you with real cash) are very common in F2P things and don't really exist in sub ones.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

SE isn't doing what's considered normal for a sub based game.

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Battle.net e-shop

• PTW Level 90 WoW Character Boost $60 USD

There were plenty of things that weren't normal and now are an Industry Standard due to other P2P MMOs and players years ago.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here. This is my own and if the game goes true PTW with P2P, my 11 years with SE on P2P services will most likely stop.

I'm not gonna judge the Venture system until I try it myself on my 2 retainers and also give SE a little time to iron out restrictions in the system once implemented. I don't require optional retainers even with all the crafting and gathering I do currently as I take some of my time to manage and prioritize it.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Battle.net e-shop

• PTW Level 90 WoW Character Boost $60 USD

There were plenty of things that weren't normal and now are an Industry Standard due to other P2P MMOs and players years ago.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here. This is my own and if the game goes true PTW with P2P, my 11 years with SE on P2P services will most likely stop.

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Right, and if I played WoW I'd be against that too. In fact, from the people I know that do play WoW, I haven't heard a single person in favor of the Character Boost thing. I also don't think the retainers are P2W, but I'm not gonna pretend they don't offer an advantage, or tell people they should be okay with them offering an advantage. Nor am I gonna say people wanting more space without shelling over additional cash are being entitled or whining. Still stands that people usually go P2P to avoid the whole buying advantages deal, so this is going to anger them, and understandably so. Yet people act like they're so surprised and people have no right to be upset.

Yeah people blow it out of proportion (it's definitely not P2W), yes SE is going to make money however they want, or in ways they think is best (I hardly think SE is out to look out for the players beyond just trying to make sure players stay so they can get more money.. they are hardly doing things out of the kindness of their hearts).. people don't have to be happy with what they choose. It also doesn't mean that people need to be happy and just take whatever SE throws at them because SE is just trying to make money.

Now, in that same breath, throwing a huff on the forums likely isn't going to make anything changed. Kinda like RMT.. no one seems to like it, but it's always around cause there are strangely always customers.

I have all battle jobs leveled.
I have most crafting jobs leveled.
I am still leveling some crafting and gathering jobs.
I have a bunch of Legacy gear that cannot be obtained anymore that I am hoarding.
I have a bunch of useless gear I keep either for vanity or ... honestly I don't even know.
I have a bunch of mats that I still believe I'm going to use one day.
I have a bunch of materia I still believe i'm going to meld into something one day.


I still don't feel like I'll need a 3rd retainer any time soon. If you do, hoard less.



All games come with limitations. Inventory management is one of said limitations. You are not entitled to as much inventory as you believe you personally need just because you pay a sub or because you think having one retainer for each city state makes even a modicum of sense (The Twelve are big in Eorzea, let's get 12 retainers!).

Want another retainer? Pay for it. It is an advantage.

An extra retainer means:

More storage - more hoarding less farming.
Higher cap on concurrent sales.
More concurrent ventures.

quick someone call SE CS!!! the players want more handouts!!! we totally don't got alot alrdy or anything!!! 'murica

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

Now, in that same breath, throwing a huff on the forums likely isn't going to make anything changed. Kinda like RMT.. no one seems to like it, but it's always around cause there are strangely always customers.

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Just like you don't see posts about FCs and LSs selling content clears. Although they will gladly risk taking gil from anyone. Technically some of that is just illegal PTW if its RMT gil.

I'm just waiting to see where SE goes with this service and how they respond if it is abused as some ppl will try to exploit it.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

You make a good point. They should probably charge us for the new Coil turns as well, I mean, we already have 5 of them - right?

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So long you don't get loot for paid coil runs.

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Originally Posted by chocomaid

Assume two separate players, extra retainers that can sell and constant demand for the stuff they sell. One player with with two retainers, one with 3 (or more). Both players want to get this "X-item(s)" that will be crucial(but not mandatory) for end-game raiding progression. However, its costs, material wise and tips are up above the sky. They need to make money to acquire it. Both start selling the same stuff, player two however has a wider market, and more lee-way to undercut people. Player two also has extra retainers for venturing that will gain extra gil here and there. Player two will have more monopoly on the market compared to player one.

Player two gets the money s/he needed, while player one is still playing and selling.

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You forgot to mention the third player, who don't paid for extra retainers but have a second character with gatherer 50. He can farm treasure maps twice each day, can sell them twice each day, earn twice as much money than the other players. And then ask a friend or LS comrade to help to trade the gil to his main character.
Extra retainers only don't make you automatic richer than other with no extra retainers.