Which job has the lowest skill cap?

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Originally Posted by Hali

Hardest to Easiest:
BRD is by far the easiest class in the entire game. Anyone who says "I need Ballad!" is a bad healer who cannot use their cooldowns correctly (this is in "end-game" content). The only time it's acceptable to waste your MP on casting Ballad (ironic yes) is when there is no caster DPS (SMN & BLM) in the party. If there is a caster you should nigh full-time Requiem.


This is of course my opinion on the matter so don't get your knickers in a twist over it.

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o.O Wait...what? You're calling a Healer bad because they run out of mp when they have to fix everyones mistakes O.o

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Originally Posted by Aeser

o.O Wait...what? You're calling a Healer bad because they run out of mp when they have to fix everyones mistakes O.o

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It's not always the party's fault. Overhealing and wasting MP on pointless cures are the prime suspect in nigh every single case. That combined with improper usage of Shroud of Saints can result in an empty MP pool and the WHM screaming at a BRD for MP, when the BRD was boosting the damage of the nearby casters and now has to gimp his own DPS. If this were an intensive damage segment, such as Ifrit Ex nail phase or Titan Ex Super bomb/ heart phase, I'd quite rightly tell them to shove it and cast requiem for the casters.
A side note, a SCH that runs out of MP is laughable to the highest degree.

In some cases...yes it is the healer (sch LOL) that is the fault, but generalizing it as the healer is always is to blame is a bit ignorant. the vast majority of the time i've seen the healer run out of mp is due to dps/tank/themselves taking avoidable damage.

*Side note: what in the world is your signature o.O

I've never had a problem with the healers I run with in statics, and only occasionally (read: "once in a blue moon") do I see someone spam the need for Ballad.
I can appreciate people getting whacked in say, a learning party. Outside of a learning party though, no one should be doing stupid mistakes enough for a healer to be completely drained of MP.
This is all based on my experiences, of course, and it may well differ to yourself.

(It's a scene from 'Kill la Kill' in which the character in my sig more or less clones herself for a fight.)

lol i gotta watch that

Well of course in a static, everyone is well aware of the other strengths/weaknesses. unfortunately, PUGs arent that way lol

In reference to the OP, I dont believe any of the jobs in FFXIV are that much more difficult than the others. Just depends on how much you pay attention and your playstyle

MNK>DRG>BlM>SMN>BRD

My Reasoning: MNK = Has steep initial learning curve when 50 is reached if you want to optimize damage. In addition to learning a pb opener that's not Snap punch spam, mnks have to learn to live within the "ebb & flow" of mnk, meaning not just do all flanks, then do all backs, b/c if you do you are losing out on dps from Demo every time. They also should (if they want to optimize dps) know/learn when applying fracture will not be a big tp drain. Example - Hey ifrit ex is about to pop eruption after he finishes casting howl, let me apply a fracture after my demolish and tod b4 i run back. This isn't make or break, but im talking about optimization. They have to stay aware of their surroundings while be up close to boss in addition to near constant movement to get bonuses. They also need to know when to use CDs for bursty dmg since their burst lacks outside of those cds. (Internal Release CD is crazy when u get all those crits on GCD along with the oGCD crits).

(To be continued in edit post)

DRG = DRG also has an initial big learning curve at 50. Yes theirs is a long rotation and longer if you want to do that C-C-C-COMBO BREAKEEEER ultimate burst combo (which feels really good to pull off by the way). Can be annoying when you need to run behind a boss to hit impulse drive for disembowel. I put DRG under mnk b/c u can stand in place once you hit those requirements and do what you do as drg, really nice/quick burst. Breaking down the long rotation into parts like the dragoon rotation reborn thread advises helps simplify the sequence for memory, along with practice of course so you don't have to constantly think about what you should do next(and just let the habit of knowing the rotation take over so you can focus on the boss).

BLM = I have BLM above SMN for a couple of reasons. BLM main difficulty imo comes from tactical positioning versus remembering a difficult rotation. On the outside looking in it may be a class where you just stand there and spam fire, hit a blizz 3/thunder and go back. However, BLM dps suffers if they do not know how to minimize movement to maximize dps. On top of that, they need to know how to maximize dps within shorter periods since they have long cast times, and they are relied upon for their burst. Example- on Titan Ex, casting fire on gaol can take a long while and not be much help if the blm doesnt start casting at an optimal time. However, it's more effective for the party (and for the blm's overall dps) if casts flare before gaol appears so it hits gaol and titan at same time right as gaol appears. BLM can then swiftcast>transpose> F3 the 2nd gaol, and maybe hit it with a scathe b4 going back to titan. Swiftcast will be aavilable every time for the blm to do this. Of course a firestarter proc could also be used, should it be available after flaring 1st gaol and titan, on the 2nd gaol which allows for swift to be used on b3 to more quickly regain mana. I don't see many do this however. There are no "set it and forget it" DoTs that blm can use outside of thunder, so they are relying more on precise movement and selection/timing of abilities to maximize dps.

SMN = SMN i put below BLM b/c of the "set it and forget it" feel of the class in my experience. Of course this is an advantage in DPS as they can still contribute dmg with garuda and DoTs even when they have to move or are disabled from atking, but I believe this makes it a little easier to play smn even though I have to press more buttons versus blm. It's not really that big of a challenge (to me) optimizing my dmg by applying DoTs fester contagion etc. I think of it as more of a convenience versus a nuisance. This may be b/c I come from playing a blm first for a long time(used to really love blm pre-2.1), so when I went in depth with SMN and saw how i could maintain my dps in extremes, I felt liberated from the "ehhhh" feeling of knowing my dps is being shot when i have to move as blm(outside of fortunate procs).

Bard = Bard is relatively easy, which makes even more mad when i see crappy bards lol. not to make a claim that it's just faceroll easy but easier than the others imo. Bards can do some boss dmg when played correctly, even if they have to sing in the fight, and it requires little memory. Plus they can atk while moving, which makes me cringe when i see other bards stop atking when they're dodging. With proper mp management(popping shroud as whm to replenish when you've spent around 1k-1.5k mp, not constantly spamming, ect) , bards shouldnt even have to sing a dps-draining song more than once. Of course, if dps are dying left and right in a pug you have to adapt to the situation. In terms of dps, unless the grp is making a lot of mistakes(forcing the bard to sing to help whm), the bard doesn't know how to pop battle voice to speed up replenishment, or he/she doesnt know how to pay attention to mp bars of casters so they can stop singing( we all have seen the bard who wants to sing until their mp is gone regardless of the status of the mp bar of the healers), it should not be difficult at all to optimize and/or do great dps as a bard. Oh and of course having invigorate as well ( I cant stand running with lv 50 bards who dont have invigorate in extremes).

This is my opinion based on my personal experience with each of the classes. I have researched and practiced with each class in depth in battle (t5 with blm/drg/mnk , extremes with all of them many a time), not just on a test dummy. Feel free to agree/disagree/debate :)

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

SMN = SMN i put below BLM b/c of the "set it and forget it" feel of the class in my experience.

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Isn't this the SMN equivalent of only attacking from the flank on MNK?

I think everyone has their own skill cap. It's not really job specific.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Isn't this the SMN equivalent of only attacking from the flank on MNK?

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if you only atk from the flank on mnk then you are not hittin the skill cap/optimizing dps. Not by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

if you only atk from the flank on mnk then you are not hittin the skill cap/optimizing dps. Not by a long shot.

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That's what he means.

A really good smn, an ok smn and a bad smn are all very easy to notice. Less so now that thunder's gone but still easy.

EDIT2: OK, read it correctly now

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

if you only atk from the flank on mnk then you are not hittin the skill cap/optimizing dps. Not by a long shot.

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SMN is much more complex than BLM. Yes, they base their damage on DoTs, but have several of the same problems as BLM, namely, they still have cast bars and moving disrupts their DPS. If they have to move while reapplying Misasma or Bio2...that can be considered as bad, if not worse than when a BLM has to move.

And then there is their pet, something no BLM has to worry about at all. Only bad SMN set their pet and forget about it; good SMN actively move it and use its abilities, and switch its target when needed. And if the pet dies, the SMN's DPS suffers until they can resummon and reposition it, hopefully not at the cost of applying a DoT or using Fester as well (which can make it even worse)

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Originally Posted by Madoka

That's what he means.

A really good smn, an ok smn and a bad smn are all very easy to notice. Less so now that thunder's gone but still easy.

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Well that can be said of any class imo. I interpreted the response to say my "set it and forget it" feel to smn was the same as a mnk only flanking. However what I described was what I feel while optimizing the dps. So I wouldn't say it's the smn equivalent to an only-flanking mnk b/c the monk is not optimizing if he/she only flanks. Thus I responded with that earlier response.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

EDIT2: OK, read it correctly now



SMN is much more complex than BLM. Yes, they base their damage on DoTs, but have several of the same problems as BLM, namely, they still have cast bars and moving disrupts their DPS. If they have to move while reapplying Misasma or Bio2...that can be considered as bad, if not worse than when a BLM has to move.

And then there is their pet, something no BLM has to worry about at all. Only bad SMN set their pet and forget about it; good SMN actively move it and use its abilities, and switch its target when needed. And if the pet dies, the SMN's DPS suffers until they can resummon and reposition it, hopefully not at the cost of applying a DoT or using Fester as well (which can make it even worse)

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Yes Im aware of what it takes to be a good smn. I just don't find it that difficult. I mean i dont find any of these "difficult" really, but in my exp with the class it's ability to do dmg while on the move through dot and garuda make it easier for me.

"Set and forget" on SMN is the same as "flank only monk" is what he and I were getting at.

You're being a bad SMN doing that

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Originally Posted by Hali

It's not always the party's fault. Overhealing and wasting MP on pointless cures are the prime suspect in nigh every single case. That combined with improper usage of Shroud of Saints can result in an empty MP pool and the WHM screaming at a BRD for MP, when the BRD was boosting the damage of the nearby casters and now has to gimp his own DPS. If this were an intensive damage segment, such as Ifrit Ex nail phase or Titan Ex Super bomb/ heart phase, I'd quite rightly tell them to shove it and cast requiem for the casters.
A side note, a SCH that runs out of MP is laughable to the highest degree.

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So healers who run out of mp suck?

I find summoner challenging simply because of the number of cooldowns that are happening through the 'bigger' fights

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Originally Posted by Giyari

So healers who run out of mp suck?

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I could just say "read my post correctly," but I'll explain what I mean. I feel I worded myself incorrectly and gave the wrong image across.

You can have a perfect party in which everyone dodges perfectly and only the tanks take damage. You will however occasionally get Derpy McFartpants who will pointlessly cure bomb and run them self dry on MP. Or they will be sat on 2000MP and be yelling for MP, because they used SoS at the wrong time and are scared of dropping below some magic number of 2000. This is the type of healer I'm having a stab at.
Or you can have a crappy party in which people constantly get hit, tanks don't use cool downs and the other healer is derping around. This situation would result in absurd levels of MP consumption. A healer in this situation is not the type of healer I'm having a stab at.


"Insult a tank or DD and no one bats an eye. Insult a healer though, and everybody loses their mind!"

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A side note, a SCH that runs out of MP is laughable to the highest degree.

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Perhaps not "run out of MP", but going REALLY down on Twintania is possible.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

Perhaps not "run out of MP", but going REALLY down on Twintania is possible.

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A SCH that runs out of MP on any fight that isn't T4-T5 is laughable to the highest degree.

Fixed? :3

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Originally Posted by Madoka

"Set and forget" on SMN is the same as "flank only monk" is what he and I were getting at.

You're being a bad SMN doing that

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And "set and forget" is the feeling i said i have when im playing smn. that does not mean all i do is place dots and literally forget(or literally neglect) everything else i should be doing as a smn. That was the point of it being in quotes and the point of me describing it as a feeling.

I do not see how a feeling i get while properly optimizing dps on a smn equates to a mnk literally not optimizing dps by only flanking.

Huh. I have the polar opposite feel as most of these posts it seems. Guess I'm different. But from easiest to hardest as I've experienced so far (and admittedly, I'm not fully grown on most of these, it's just what I've experienced so far and extrapolated while taking into account skills I haven't gotten yet), I'd have to go with this list:

DRG < BLM <SMN < MNK < BRD

Why? Because to me, rotations make a class easy. Dragoon has minimal position requirements or changes between ability sets and because I can muscle memory the next ability to hit it makes it really easy to do. So why is Monk up higher? Because I have a hard time remembering which ability has which position requirement, and it seems to me that there is a lot more moving back and forth to be done. And it isn't consistent while you're keeping your buffs and ability stacks up.

The reason why Bard is ranked highest for me, is because of a lack of an actual rotation (like the Dragoon's). Because for me to maximize the DPS I do while pewpewing with pointy sticks I have to watch out for ability procs of multiple abilities, pay way more attention to weaving oGCD abilities in, all the while still keeping enough attention to what's going on around me to dodge out of the way of something.

Rotations, for me, make things easier because I always know that after I hit 2 I am going to hit 3. Can't really do that with a Bard. After I hit 2 sometimes I can hit 3, though I may have to hit 8 9 or 0 instead.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

And "set and forget" is the feeling i said i have when im playing smn. that does not mean all i do is place dots and literally forget(or literally neglect) everything else i should be doing as a smn. That was the point of it being in quotes and the point of me describing it as a feeling.

I do not see how a feeling i get while properly optimizing dps on a smn equates to a mnk literally not optimizing dps by only flanking.

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Because if you feel like you have that much downtime on SMN, you clearly aren't making full use of your cooldowns on SMN.

I mean sure it can be like that in 4 man content, but in EX and coil I'm always super super busy compared to everyone else

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Originally Posted by Caraway

Rotations, for me, make things easier because I always know that after I hit 2 I am going to hit 3. Can't really do that with a Bard. After I hit 2 sometimes I can hit 3, though I may have to hit 8 9 or 0 instead.

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A rotation may make it easy to go "oh that's next" but that's nothing to do with the difficulty in playing a job.
The difficulty comes in up-keeping that rotation at all times. The positionals and monsters that turn constantly and bad tanks always make this the challenging part of playing the job. A BRD doesn't have to worry about that, and just has to throw in off-GCD abilities between on-GCD abilities, or as everyone seems to love calling it "weave" your abilities. Here's a newsflash for you too, every single DD class "weaves" their off-GCD and on-GCD abilities, It's nothing special and specific to BRD as people seem to think.

If this is a troll, hat's off to you I fell hook, line and sinker for it. If not, it seems from the lodestone that you need to actually play every class to 50 and have experience with end game before spouting an opinion that spans from lack of knowledge. On the flipside though, if that's an alt, "WAT" comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Because if you feel like you have that much downtime on SMN, you clearly aren't making full use of your cooldowns on SMN.

I mean sure it can be like that in 4 man content, but in EX and coil I'm always super super busy compared to everyone else

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That is you and your feeling. That is not me and my feeling. You're seriously trying to argue what I feel and use that feeling to try to refute....what exactly? Not making full use of my cooldowns? i clearly stated I know what to do to optimize playing smn, and that does not remove my described feeling. You're assuming my feeling = not making use of my cooldowns b/c you're "always super super busy." No. That just means you feel super super busy playing the class.

As someone who actually plays every DPS in top end content, if you always want a simple and easy time comparative to other classes, the answer is Bard.

I find summoner to be very easy and not that difficult at all. Any person who has played a warlock from wow can easily learn to play this class at its best since they're not very different from each other.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

snip

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I really hope you're saying your rotation should be T2>F3>F1 spam>B3>repeat, otherwise you are playing the class very, very, wrong. I only use Convert for double flaring and nothing more. Its CD is perfectly timed with Raging Strikes so you get the most out of both.

As for my order:

1: MNK
2: SMN
3: DRG
4: BLM
5: BRD

Ive barely played the top two simply because i dont appeal to it and it seems very confusing managing the class later on. DRG all it is keeping up your buffs and dots and making sure your enemy is already weakened (piercing res.) before using your jumps. BLM its simply a rotation with one dot. I've seen BLM 50's who for whatever reason just spam blizzard 3 after a few fires, which im guessing is so that they "never run out of mp", i hope isnt what Tharian is talking about. Its literally a class where you waste all of your mp as quick as possible and gain it all back while applying dots and buffs...