Patch 2.2, Accessibility, Difficulty Levels, and Throwing Away Content

why is this thread still open? it is totally off topic and is driving into the usual hardcore/causal troll territory?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I'm afraid your nostalgia glasses are screwed on a bit too tight there. Folks were FURIOUS at CoP for locking away content behind difficult fights. Far from this "admiration" you claim, the forums were up in arms: "we paid $30 for content we can't even access wtf???" Why do you think they nerfed CoP like five times? I'm still disappointed that the first wave of nerfs came in before I was able to clear the missions myself. And, of course, the CoP missions are a pure laugh, now, with level caps removed and folks waltzing through them with Delve gear (and you'll STILL hear folks complain about how certain parts of it can't be done solo).

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment that all content should be accessable to players of all skill levels, but comparing it to the "good old days" of FFXI is silly. Players were as spoiled back then as they are now - and just as now, when players whined, they got what they wanted. In FFXI, it just took a little longer.

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Maybe some people on the OF, but I don't recall anyone in game bitching about "having paid 30$ and not getting Sea Access" in game. But fine, if not CoP, then Einherjar, Salvage, Advanced Dyamis, Sky, King... FFXI were used to not have access to all, I find hard to believe someone who wanted everything and now like they did in XIV would survive long in it.

Old content gets depreciated for casual players and new content is added to provide difficult content for progression players.

Welcome to MMOs. Drinks are in the back.

I kind of agree with all the people saying that it isn't a big deal that old stuff gets nerfed and new stuff is the hardest, I have beat Twintania and I am happy to be able to play with more friends in turns 1-5 on a regular basis, rather than just my static. The only thing is there is a precedent set from the past (1.0) of rewarding people for beating the super hard content with exclusive rewards (White Ravens) and that no longer seems to be the case. Even though my White Ravens are useless I still like them because they are a memento of past deeds, so I'd hope they have something similar in mind for those who beat content pre-nerf.

Of course beating it is its own reward but honestly, we could stop farming Twintania now for weapons and just do it post patch when it isn't locked and save ourselves a lot of frustrating at the loot system.

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Originally Posted by jars

why don't you go play.... ffxi. it's still going you know.

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why people who look for "horizontal progression" go play FFXI? when it became "an other vertical progression MMO"

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

But MMO fanbase isa bunch of crybaby. I'm sorry, but it's true. You think not getting the story for the Exes or the Coil is bad? People in FFXI went years without Sea or Sky access, and what they did? They didn't cry, they admired those who made it there and strove for it. And doing CoP story was far harder and resource-wasteful than getting teleported in 5 second in a instance from all over the world every time you can.
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FTFY
It's not only FFXIV player.
put "2010+" players on pre WotG FFXI they will cry louder than all the cry about FFXIV v2 since launch

Got an Idea.


Let SE nerf any content they wish, while still having a version at normal difficulty.

And only have the hard version drop gear.

For those people all up in arms about wanting 'access' to the content because 'story' they shouldn't mind they don't also get the gear right?

I like how there's this idea that sideways progression is what kept FFXI alive for so long. What kept FFXI alive for so long was the fact that there was vertical progression but the increases were in extremely small steps and there was a HUGE time-sink between those steps. Then abyssea came out and got rid of all that and added way quicker vertical progression and the majority of players loved it. Now with Seekers of Adoulin they're trying to bring back some of that old, hardcore players onry, mentality and they lost a LOT of players because of it and had to turn back around and make things easier.

Why do people care about how other people are playing ?
Why would you care that older contents are getting easier as long as newer contents are hard enough for you to enjoy ?
Do you keep doing them ?

EDIT : if you are a newer player looking for a challenge, I can understand but it seems to me that the complainers have already beaten those dungeons.

"Horizontal progression" was a convoluted mess and wouldn't survive in today's MMO. Having to save multiple gear sets for one job at a time isn't my idea of fun. I don't get why anyone would want that back...then again, FFXI players are known masochists who adore being treated like dirt and trudging through a game that isn't any fun (while still complaining endlessly about it), and now they want XIV to emulate this?

Sorry, but they want XIV to actually succeed. XI was a miserable failure anywhere outside japan, it was barely even a blip on the radar for critics to bother with it, lol. We don't need that again.

This is how modern MMOs work. Old content becomes obsolete (waaait, FFXI did that too...remember garrison, etc? hurr) Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Meimei

"Horizontal progression" was a convoluted mess and wouldn't survive in today's MMO. Having to save multiple gear sets for one job at a time isn't my idea of fun. I don't get why anyone would want that back...then again, FFXI players are known masochists who adore being treated like dirt and trudging through a game that isn't any fun (while still complaining endlessly about it), and now they want XIV to emulate this?

Sorry, but they want XIV to actually succeed. XI was a miserable failure anywhere outside japan, it was barely even a blip on the radar for critics to bother with it, lol. We don't need that again.

This is how modern MMOs work. Old content becomes obsolete (waaait, FFXI did that too...remember garrison, etc? hurr) Deal with it.

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How can one be so wrong, and still remember how to breathe.. seriously... find a scientist and have them study you.

I challenge myself for the challenge, If i get a t-shirt then its cool but I just like the challenge of the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

How can one be so wrong, and still remember how to breathe.. seriously... find a scientist and have them study you.

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I agree with you Kazamoto, it was a huge success if you look at the money made from the game.

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

How can one be so wrong, and still remember how to breathe.. seriously... find a scientist and have them study you.

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Well, I can see how horizontal gear progression can be a "a convoluted mess" for the average modern mmorpg player. I mean, look at FFXIV, it may not have equip at all for what's the difference between gears set!

Probably all those stats and different abilities made their brain melt.

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Originally Posted by Lodiodrive

I agree with you Kazamoto, it was a huge success if you look at the money made from the game.

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Definitely, FFXI generated a steady income for years for SE. Of course it launched originally on PS2 in an era where online-gaming wasn't so popular, so any comparison with mdoern mmorpg that make 1M+ at launch (but fade away pretty quickly, ironically) is pretty silly.

When it comes to endgame content you have two choices.

1) Do the content when it's difficult and get rewarded for effort.
2) Wait and do the content when it's not as difficult and get rewarded for patience.

This is the model for most MMOs out there. The only ones that don't do it this way, are the old ones or the niche ones.

we had 8months to rind our teeth on coil1-5, now its everyones time to be able to see it. Guess what, we got 6months likely to grind on coil 6-9. You still get your challenge, and if your still not in coil 1-5, find a static who also wants to do it in original state and is willing to leave to keep resetting echo buff once you get it since it seems that's how its getting nerfed..

Some people need to learn that games are not built for 1 person or even the top 5%. yes we get our fun at the top when stuff first comes out, then the rest get to have their fun. dont forget, the people you want to exclude from this "challenging" content are the ones paying 90% of the subscription fees, and if they dont get new things to do also, they stop playing and thus stop paying and then the funds that are paying for development of our new "hard" content is gone.

I still like that 'nerfed content for completion, normal difficulty for gear' idea someone had.

Cuz everyone just wants to see and complete the story, its not about getting gear drops for them.

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Originally Posted by Meimei

This is how modern MMOs work. Old content becomes obsolete (waaait, FFXI did that too...remember garrison, etc? hurr) Deal with it.

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Actually, SE never outright replaced Garrison. It certainly didn't remain popular throughout the game's life, but the Mannequin pieces that dropped from it were still in high demand years after it came out, and some of the equipment dropped from it like Garrison Tunica and Garrison Hose were actually some of the best stuff you could wear on some jobs for that level.

Of course, trying to bring up a small scale event like Garrison was a terrible attempt to make a point to begin with, considering that pre-Abyssea people were still doing Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, HNMs, ZNMs, ISNMs, Nyzule Isle, Einherjar, Assault, Campaign, orb fights, and various other small events released over those seven years. If a game that builds upon its content rather than obsoletes everything except the last few months isn't your thing, that's fine, but you're not going to convince anyone that FFXI is in the same category as modern day WoW ripoffs because of a silly example like that.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Definitely, FFXI generated a steady income for years for SE. Of course it launched originally on PS2 in an era where online-gaming wasn't so popular, so any comparison with mdoern mmorpg that make 1M+ at launch (but fade away pretty quickly, ironically) is pretty silly.

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We aren't comparing dollar amounts but over all success, the game was successful that's it, the point is invalid for a number of different reasons but you can measure success against success easily. How are you guys going to make a financial viability argument while ignoring the elephant in the room? Also yes the game was successful ten years ago but you realize it's a pretty big leap to just do the same thing again, right? We might one day get our throwback MMO but not as long as you guys are on every forum making it look like it's not even worth the trouble.

Also I played UO and EQ, it doesn't make me smarter than anyone. You guys should stop equating your gaming experience with intelligence, while certainly things do get dumbed down, you can't claim some Mensa level intellect because you managed a few more stats. I'm not any smarter for watching the Original Robocop vs. the Remake.

Why don't you all move on to more important issues like what word combined with "baby" are you going to refer to anyone you don't like after this patch goes live? May I suggest Echo Baby?

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Originally Posted by Susanoh

If a game that builds upon its content rather than obsoletes everything except the last few months isn't your thing, that's fine

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Well doesn't more of that have to do with lack of instancing and presence of competition? People would go back to do what they could since many things weren't as available? I'm not familiar with the game but so bear with me a little. Were there fights like Heroic Lich King at all? I know there weren't in EQ, I think you guys mistake the trading of one difficulty for another as some kind of evil plot to ruin your favorite genre. We've traded camping and grinding for GCD locked DPS rotations and more complex boss encounters. I don't know that it's a completely fair and even trade, but acting as if none of this content can be called "difficult" because it doesn't have a 9 week spawn timer is just silly.

I mean I really wouldn't mind seeing a game in the style of EQ or FFXI however I think it would fair poorly in the market and I feel that if it didn't non-instanced EQ playstyle can't stand up to millions and millions of players. There'd have to be either an insane amount of content with huge landmasses OR they'd just have to give up and instance things which is the REAL reason content obsolesce happens, since each raid is going to be around a similar difficulty, naturally people won't run the one that drops worse gear. If you make each raid harder than the last you end up capping off expansions with content like Naxx40 and Sunwell which people simply ignore.

Maybe it's just a disconnect from companies wanting more and more customers, that we've went past the ideal population per server to have THAT kind of MMO. We need some middle ground between 128 player FPS and MMO which now refers to millions of players rather than hundreds of thousands. Er even not that every MMO is at the millions of players mark, it's obvious the move to instanced content is designed to accommodate more people and let more people do more at once, instancing wasn't not put in old games for some high minded principle but because it wasn't something they could do technologically at the time.

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Originally Posted by Meimei

"Horizontal progression" was a convoluted mess and wouldn't survive in today's MMO. Having to save multiple gear sets for one job at a time isn't my idea of fun. I don't get why anyone would want that back...

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The success of the ultimate horizontal gear progression game: Monster Hunter series would beg to differ.

Vertical progression (aka 'Power Creep') leads to boring gear stats, worthless rewards, and a perpetual endgame treadmill. -- all of which FFXIV currently suffers from. (This direction could actually be changed in one patch if Yoshi P gave the order...)

When enough people realize that no matter how much work they put into something, it'll be obsolete in 3 months -- they'll either become casual players, or they'll to look for another game with more lasting rewards. **cough, Dark Souls II, cough**

What if they put a small symbol on loot that gets acquired from the nerfed coil during an echo buff? Everyone would know that you acquired it with echo and did not click it off. I think it's a great idea. Make it happen SE.

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Originally Posted by Tazo

What if they put a small symbol on loot that gets acquired from the nerfed coil during an echo buff? Everyone would know that you acquired it with echo and did not click it off. I think it's a great idea. Make it happen SE.

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WHO CARES?

Why do you tryhards care so much about marking people who beat something after it's nerfed? Why does it matter that much to you? What is your actual motivation here? Why do you even care that they're nerfing something you're already beating easily? What difference does it make?

You have no legitimate reason to be upset by this unless you derive pleasure from the misery of other players.

There is something wrong with you. Seek psychological help.

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Originally Posted by Worm

-cut-

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You speak like all WoW-Clone/Theme Park MMORPG or how do you want to call them (in which FFXIV belong) in recent years haven't crashed and burned after a successful start. :P

Lol I'm not mad or upset, I know what I signed up for playing a game with vertical progression. You missed the point of a humorous suggestion and you are the one that is obviously upset. I think you got your shit pushed in by the hardcores one too many times, and on behalf of the hardcores, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Tazo

Lol I'm not mad or upset, I know what I signed up for playing a game with vertical progression. You missed the point of a humorous suggestion and you are the one that is obviously upset. I think you got your shit pushed in by the hardcores one too many times, and on behalf of the hardcores, I apologize.

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My problem is not so much with the players, though they certainly have a share of the blame, but with the genre and the gaming industry as a whole. I really, really enjoy these games. There aren't many multiplayer games anywhere nearly as social as an MMO like XIV.

But the genre is dying. It's dying and being taken over by the zombie free-to-play infection.

XIV is one of the very last, very few subscription-only online RPGs without a cash shop. Even WoW has a cash shop now. Everyone has one. Every MMO is slowly becoming a Credit Card Arms Race. This is one of the two left (the other being FFXI) that isn't like that. I don't want to see it die, and what ya'll want will kill it dead. If XIV started trending towards FFXI logistically, most of the casual players would leave, and with most of the money gone, Square-Enix would have to either go free-to-play, thus joining the zombies, or shut down entirely.

I don't really want that to happen. I don't want to write off the entire genre, but if there are no subscription options left... :(

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Originally Posted by Worm

I mean I really wouldn't mind seeing a game in the style of EQ or FFXI however I think it would fair poorly in the market and I feel that if it didn't non-instanced EQ playstyle can't stand up to millions and millions of players. There'd have to be either an insane amount of content with huge landmasses OR they'd just have to give up and instance things which is the REAL reason content obsolesce happens, since each raid is going to be around a similar difficulty, naturally people won't run the one that drops worse gear.

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That each new piece of content must drop vastly superior equipment is the mindset that causes older content to become obsolete, not whether content is instanced or not. If new content were to come with different rewards that accommodated different play styles or offered alternatives to what already existed, it makes for a game that has quite a bit of relevant content for players to choose to do and get cool rewards while doing it. The methods used by some modern games and now FF14 make for a game where no one wants to do old content. It becomes a joke to complete because of how easy it is with superior equipment, and doesn't drop anything that anyone wants, because all drops are inferior to whatever just came out. What's left is the only content people care to do at all, which is whatever was just released. Some people might want this style of game, but it's incredibly easy to see why some wouldn't. A game that gets constantly updated like an MMO does has the potential to build itself into an experience with lots of things to do and get some nice rewards while doing them. A game that uses the power creep method becomes only as good as its latest patch, since no one wants to do any old content, as it becomes easily out leveled and unbalanced and has no relevant rewards. We don't even get anything nice in exchange for these methods. It only serves to make the amount of relevant things to do in game feel incredibly restrictive.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

snip(

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I see what you are saying. I consider myself hardcore and don't care about the nerfing, it's vertical progression....it is bound to happen.

But we don't want vertical progression.....EVERY mmo that was released with vertical progression, has died. WoW made it work because it coined it along with the stupid BS to make everything instanced. It gets boring....people quit, simple as that. Now combine that with recycled content, failed economy, crafting being useless, the world being nothing by eye candy, latency issues for many.....you have a sinking ship.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

1) Patch 2.2 adds the "medium difficulty" to end-game content that should have been there from day one for players who just want to see the story, but at the same time takes the higher difficulty of that content away from the players that wanted a grinding-their-teeth challenge and some kind of trophy for doing it to show off to their friends. So they are actually taking away accessibility to the content.

Think of other games with difficulty levels. You may not ever play on super-chillidog-my-innards-are-dying extreme mode, but you could still try it if you wanted to. That is what access is. This is a game where you payed for the higher difficulty on those bosses, but now they are going to remove the higher difficulty at the same time they activate medium difficulty on the same boss. That sort of flies in the face of what "accessible" is supposed to mean.

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accessible
[ak-ses-uh-buhl]
adjective
1. easy to approach, reach, enter, speak with, or use.
2. that can be used, entered, reached, etc.: an accessible road; accessible ruins.
3. obtainable; attainable: accessible evidence.

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Originally Posted by Tazo

*words*

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That's actually not true. RIFT was profitable for many years, sustaining itself on a small playerbase about the size as FFXIV's (a little bit bigger, I'm pretty sure RIFT was around a million active players). RIFT went free-to-play not because RIFT was a modern MMO. It went F2P because Trion overextended themselves and lost a lot of money on Rise of Nations and Defiance. They didn't have a choice but to lay off a bunch of people and convert RIFT to free-to-play, so that people would be less likely to revolt over the sudden loss of content.

Every MMO that was released and has died has done so due to logistical incompetence, budget problems, unrelated profit losses and general mismanagement. The gameplay models are not what caused these games to fail.

The main problem seems to be that people want others to know they beat coil before the nerf so they know what an accomplishment they achieved.

No one cares. You think they do- that's the problem. There is no accomplishment or achievement here. No one is looking at you. No one is admiring you. No one cares. It's a casual game.

Besides, there will be new gear for you to get- if you want to feel special, go get that gear. No one will care then, either- but you can pretend they do while you pose and show off in Toll, while no one is looking.

Don't like those old games with grinds and epic content? Then get used to no one caring about what you did in game- because there is no elite here. That's the byproduct of a watered down game... when everyone is special- no one is.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

The main problem seems to be that people want others to know they beat coil before the nerf so they know what an accomplishment they achieved.

No one cares. You think they do- that's the problem. There is no accomplishment or achievement here. No one is looking at you. No one is admiring you. No one cares. It's a casual game.

Besides, there will be new gear for you to get- if you want to feel special, go get that gear. No one will care then, either- but you can pretend they do while you pose and show off in Toll, while no one is looking.

Don't like those old games with grinds and epic content? Then get used to no one caring about what you did in game- because there is no elite here. That's the byproduct of a watered down game... when everyone is special- no one is.

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This is the best post.

This is the byproduct of this game, and the vast majority of us like it this way. We don't need to inflate an e-peen. We don't care about looking special. We don't care about pissing on the "noobs." We don't care about any of that crap.

What do we care about? Having fun with our friends. That's all.

Those of you who want to achieve fake goals and false accomplishments to feel validated by other players in a virtual world? Uhm, seek help immediately.

I don't think they need help. They just need to grow up and get out of their teen mentality.

You guys really need to stop with this "I beat coil when it was hard" nonsense... nobody cares, your "accomplishment" doesn't mean jack to anyone.

You know what matters instead? what you have equipped during a patch.

Wearing Coil 1-5 gear right now? that's your accomplishment, that's when people inspect you and go "wow" nobody is gonna look at your history and go "damn this guy is awesome, he beat 1-5 before the nerf"

2.2 hits, get that 6-9 gear and people will see your "accomplishment" then and there.. that's what you should be looking forward to, not some epeen history of yours that nobody cares about.

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This is the byproduct of this game, and the vast majority of us like it this way. We don't need to inflate an e-peen. We don't care about looking special. We don't care about pissing on the "noobs." We don't care about any of that crap.

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I find it funny that whenever I read posts strongly defending current route game is taking in all those threads, it's always synaesthetic. No one else. Not a single soul. Just you. Didn't it cross your mind, that this "vast majority" of yours exists only in your head? And it's actually you and you alone?

On less personal note, I have statistics. Being die-hard fan of Final Fantasy I actually PRed FFXIV not long before release with my own money in a few communities. So I had possibilities to keep track of ~1400 players. Only ~160 of them keep playing, all others left. 88% people out of those 160 log in once per week for Coil only because they feel resposible for their static groups and they would leave this game in a heartbeat for good if not that. Doesn't feel like "vast majority", does it?

Eventually I will make separate thread with more statistics when I get them. So please join discussion by then.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

You speak like all WoW-Clone/Theme Park MMORPG or how do you want to call them (in which FFXIV belong) in recent years haven't crashed and burned after a successful start. :P

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You're talking like a MMO dev here, when you declare that any modern MMO that didn't become WoW is a failure. And yeah I see your :P there, I just couldn't help myself.

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Originally Posted by Susanoh

That each new piece of content must drop vastly superior equipment is the mindset that causes older content to become obsolete, not whether content is instanced or not. If new content were to come with different rewards that accommodated different play styles or offered alternatives to what already existed, it makes for a game that has quite a bit of relevant content for players to choose to do and get cool rewards while doing it. The methods used by some modern games and now FF14 make for a game where no one wants to do old content. It becomes a joke to complete because of how easy it is with superior equipment, and doesn't drop anything that anyone wants, because all drops are inferior to whatever just came out. What's left is the only content people care to do at all, which is whatever was just released. Some people might want this style of game, but it's incredibly easy to see why some wouldn't. A game that gets constantly updated like an MMO does has the potential to build itself into an experience with lots of things to do and get some nice rewards while doing them. A game that uses the power creep method becomes only as good as its latest patch, since no one wants to do any old content, as it becomes easily out leveled and unbalanced and has no relevant rewards. We don't even get anything nice in exchange for these methods. It only serves to make the amount of relevant things to do in game feel incredibly restrictive.

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You completely dodged the instanced vs. competitive content angle here. I understand why though, because it's really hard to rectify with everything else you're saying. How do you make a instanced game with horizontal progression? Are you saying you'd be happy with this new version of coil if it had ilvl 91 gear and ilvl 96 weapons at the end? Probably not. We have the option of slowly building up to a raid difficulty that most players don't see like Naxx40 or Sunwell. Mind you difficulty includes all attunements, grinding, bugged encounters, resist gear farming, or fingernails that must be pulled out and mailed to the developers. Of course only 5%~ of the player base being to reach this content when it's current doesn't make it obsolete, it makes it obsoleet ... HEH.

Then we have the option of just making the game have competitive non-instanced content, which means either it needs to be HUGE beyond imagining or simply have servers with as few players as there were ten years ago. I really don't think there's much middle ground, games are designed for more load now-a-days because everyone wants WoW numbers, that's it. It's just an inevitable and unavoidable truth. I hope a company comes and builds an MMO for 6 figures, but seeing as Brad McQuaid's latest hardcore vaporware has kickstarter goals up into the millions, I doubt it'll happen. I'd like to see it happen but subbing to games and spending the majority of your time trying to World's Best MMO Soothsayer on the forums isn't going to make people want to make this game, I swear.

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Originally Posted by Vantol

On less personal note, I have statistics. Being die-hard fan of Final Fantasy I actually PRed FFXIV not long before release with my own money in a few communities. So I had possibilities to keep track of ~1400 players. Only ~160 of them keep playing, all others left. 88% people out of those 160 log in once per week for Coil only because they feel resposible for their static groups and they would leave this game in a heartbeat for good if not that. Doesn't feel like "vast majority", does it?

Eventually I will make separate thread with more statistics when I get them. So please join discussion by then.

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Please tell me you are going to post data from your Guerrilla PR activities and pass them off as meaningful, I can't wait.

I don't honestly understand why people are terribly upset about this, the demographic of players who can take legitimate offense seems like it would be rather small.

**Players who are both capable and interested in defeating Twintania as she is right now, but haven't yet been able to put forth the effort to do it.

I can understand being upset the content is being nerfed in this manner, and I believe with the echo buff system it may be possible to still do it without it and experience it in its original intensity. As with all content in a game such as this, it's being passively nerfed over time as players are able to acquire better equipment by CT, myth tomes, coil runs etc. anyways. At any rate I feel like this player would be interested in challenging coils 6-9 as well.

**Players who beat Twintania before (twisters nerf/2.1/2.2/x weeks of myth) patch.

I fall into this category and I don't care if she's nerfed. 14 kills later(I play 2 chars, before people call me out) I still don't have a single allagan weapon and I look forward to playing new content/raiding coil with more FC mates than my 7 static members and teaching them the Twintania fight etc. I don't care if my current accomplishments are invalidated, there will be new challenges coming with the next patch and I look forward to playing them. By the time 2.2 comes I will have been killing Twintania for 3 months, what part of this is impressive anymore?

**Players who haven't beat Twintania but want to experience the whole story.

There are a lot of reasons this can happen. Maybe you aren't the best player, sure. Maybe you have an unfriendly work schedule and can't form a static. Maybe you've been busy with school. Maybe your static had drama and fell apart. Maybe you can only play for 1 hour at a time. etcetcetc -- Eventually these players should be allowed to beat Twin. Twin is 6 month old content at this point and I don't see an issue with that.

Are people really just so caught up on others being able to get allagan loot that might not normally be able to as easily? At this point they can gear an entire class by myth alone to be i90. A piece of allagan loot is not really something to brag about....

I don't understand the value in doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Are there really people who want to do the endgame content out now 4 years from now? These are people that exist? Why wouldn't they want to do what's new? I just don't understand why people are so attached to content they've done already hundreds of times, as we are constantly reminded.

To each his own I guess.

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Originally Posted by Scarletyoshi

I don't understand the value in doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Are there really people who want to do the endgame content out now 4 years from now? These are people that exist? Why wouldn't they want to do what's new? I just don't understand why people are so attached to content they've done already hundreds of times, as we are constantly reminded.

To each his own I guess.

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It just feels like "I walked up hill in the snow both ways so new players should have to as well" type of mentality. I don't really understand the type of player who wants their Allagan Weapon from an unnerfed twin to be relevant 2 years in the future... what kind of value does that put on all the gear released in two years if it's worse than something you already have?

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Originally Posted by Maye

It just feels like "I walked up hill in the snow both ways so new players should have to as well" type of mentality. I don't really understand the type of player who wants their Allagan Weapon from an unnerfed twin to be relevant 2 years in the future... what kind of value does that put on all the gear released in two years if it's worse than something you already have?

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I know. It's like someone feeling they got ripped off because PS3's are $150 now when they bought theirs for $699 a thousand years ago. You got to play with it for a thousand years before the people who got it for $150! If you thought you were making an investment then you suck at investing.

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Originally Posted by Vantol

-words-

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Wait a second...you tell them that what they think is the majority isn't because what you want to think is? Can we see these so called statistics. Who am I kidding you won't post in this thread or you'll just ignore me.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Yoshida doesn't understand what makes a MMORPG endgame (or a MMORPG in general) last. Exclusive content is good, hard content is good, it gives people something to work toward, a feeling that there is always a world and content behind everything.

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Actually I believe he does know, since he has made one for adults with a life. You on the other side seem to still believe MMOs should be for kids who ignore school and should require a ton of time and work.

Exclusive and hard content is a waste. Only thing you need is fun content.