Scholar and Summoner shared attributes needs fixed!

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Originally Posted by ispano

Also, they ARE doing it to other classes when new jobs get introduced. Pretty well known that they are as well. I LIKE it this way, the stats don't mean a whole lot, so even if you never put any in you could still do fine.

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Source? I haven't read or heard anything about this beyond rumors that are spread all over forums (like the current musketeer for 2.2 rumor). I'm not saying you're lying or anything, but I don't exactly watch every single live letter either. I've never seen anything official that stated every single class was going to spin-off into 2+ jobs with different primary stats.

Just because developer say it's intended doesn't mean it's not flawed.

It's like how Yoshi said Warrior was fine as it is, and yet many people complained how Warrior is the underdog.

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Source? I haven't read or heard anything about this beyond rumors that are spread all over forums (like the current musketeer for 2.2 rumor). I'm not saying you're lying or anything, but I don't exactly watch every single live letter either. I've never seen anything official that stated every single class was going to spin-off into 2+ jobs with different primary stats.

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They've talked about it since we heard Summoner and Scholar came from ACN.

Maybe the old armory system from 1.0 would be better
physical level (the level of your character, not the class level), stats bounded to the charcter (not the class) and many hours to reset all stats

Even not playing the class, I have to agree with OP for the most part. The game is built around the "you can max every class", for better or worse. Why single out Sum/Sch for the stat allocation dispute? Are they testing them for some future variance of another current class? A healer Monk who needs MND instead of DPS STR? Maybe SE doesn't really care for SMN/SCH.

It just seems like a slap in the face to the people that actually do like those classes. If SE designed the two to function in this way, makes me question if they didn't think the situation all the way through before finalizing them. Darn Friday meetings!

Not to go totally off topic (but im going to... XD ) How un-powerful do you feel as SMN in XIV compared to other FF games? FFXI watered them down. FFXIV is holding their head under water...

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Originally Posted by Zepheron

This is FFXIV not Wow.

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Pretty much this, can't think of any Final Fantasy with a job system that limits you stat wise to sticking to a job like ARR does with SMN/SCH, then again I also can't think of any that has stat allocation like this, it's simply a bad design decision that will get worse the more branching jobs are added. Makes you think if the fans that keep defending this limitation by design are really Final Fantasy fans or if they've even played most of the games.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Hurr durr design.

Would make sense if arcanist jobs were all that awesome, but you can't even issue orders to your pet if you don't put it in Obey (which still needs a target, for some reason).

What a joke.

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Funny, you basically say arcanist is unplayable unless you know how to play arcanist. Use a macro, and all will be made right. Do not like macros? Do not play acranist. Simple as that. Or just figure you will never be able to control your pet, and let it run wild.

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Originally Posted by Diadumenos

Even not playing the class, I have to agree with OP for the most part. The game is built around the "you can max every class", for better or worse.

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Okay, we need a new argument, cause this one is broken. This is the quote people keep coming up with, and its BS. Because you CAN max every CLASS. People want to be able to max every class TWICE on one character. Your build is the class, your soul gem is the class. I agree they should just take the points out of the game entirely, end the problem. Do it like FFV with all the jobs.

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Originally Posted by ispano

They've talked about it since we heard Summoner and Scholar came from ACN.

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Yes, everyone says 'they' have talked about it, but I'm asking for a source because I want to read exactly what 'they' have said about it instead of paraphrased stuff on forums that generally ends up distorted or exaggerated through the telephone effect. I've been googling around forever trying to find this, but I haven't found anything outside of SCH/SMN mentioned. :/ Guess I'm phrasing it wrong or something.

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Originally Posted by Jilse

Funny, you basically say arcanist is unplayable unless you know how to play arcanist. Use a macro, and all will be made right. Do not like macros? Do not play acranist. Simple as that. Or just figure you will never be able to control your pet, and let it run wild.

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Now you either micro manage, or don't manage anything at all. How that adds anything to the gameplay, besides "inconvenience"?
I guess I was having it too easy by leaving Selene to buff whenever she could and being able to Embrace who I wanted. Fun shall be nerfed.

Um guys, just because it was intentionally designed this way doesn't make it any less dumb. And for the "It's just 30 stats." people, your FCs must love you with all that loot you keep passing up. It's just stats right? Not like they matter in an RPG.

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Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

Um guys, just because it was intentionally designed this way doesn't make it any less dumb. And for the "It's just 30 stats." people, your FCs must love you with all that loot you keep passing up. It's just stats right? Not like they matter in an RPG.

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Except the people who are ok with it don't think it's dumb. I don't think it's dumb, I think it's GOOD.

When you equip the sch soul base attributes are reassigned, the only attributes you have to worry about are the 30 points you so choose to allocate. For min maxing these point kinda matter, but as you gear up the 30 points you put in become less relavent.

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Originally Posted by GabrielK

I mean, I can be a MNK with maxed out STR and switch instantly to a BLM with maxed out INT.. mechanics wise there should be the same for jobs of the same class.

The restriction feels very out of place to me. (an out of place time sink )

You may disagree and the game designers may disagree for now, but it doesn't invalidate some people's wishes.

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But you couldn't level Monk and then automatically also have a level 50 BLM at your disposal. You HAD to invest time and energy in BOTH of those party roles. ACN=2 Jobs for the time of leveling 1. So it is important to have some limitations. SE already made it so your choices aren't permanent. With a keepers hymn, you can switch back and forth as you please.

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This is working as intended

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I don't buy it.

Seems more like an OVERSIGHT to me.

In their very sad attempt to having some kind of character customization and old-school rpg element, SE added stat points. Of course, there is basically only one viable choice for each job. Then later they and people realized it had the side effect of screwing over Scholar/Summoner if you want to play both, and now they need to think of a way to fix it or are too lazy to.

People saying other class/job combos will have this problem---not necessarily. The reason Arcanist jobs have this problem is because it's a DPS changing to a healer and vise versa. Will a pugilist have this problem when they add another job for that class? Probably not. Will a thaumaturge have that problem? Probably not.

The game is full of conflicts like this and they are directly opposed to the goal of the class system in the first place: that you can play what you want when you want. PvP is getting boned the absolute hardest at the moment to where you can only viably play one class/job.

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Originally Posted by Zepheron

Give each job independent attribute allocation of equal value.
Nothing game breaking here as Smn is all int and Sch is all mnd.
If you didn't want people to play both smn and sch then you should not have put both of them into the game. (0)

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The stats don't belong to the job, they belong to the class. The SMN and SCH jobs share the ACN class, so you only get the ACN class's stats to work with. This is intentional.

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Originally Posted by LamiaTrucido

Just let SMN equip cleric stance, then put all your points in mind.

Objections?

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Yes, because A) SMN doesn't get ANY important MND gear that can be converted into INT and B) Cleric Stance doesn't exist so that the Arcanist can cheat the bonus point system, it's there so that healers, who are stuck in healer gear, can do solo content by making their few damage-dealing spells worth a damn.

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Originally Posted by casker

I don't buy it.

Seems more like an OVERSIGHT to me.

In their very sad attempt to having some kind of character customization and old-school rpg element, SE added stat points. Of course, there is basically only one viable choice for each job. Then later they and people realized it had the side effect of screwing over Scholar/Summoner if you want to play both, and now they need to think of a way to fix it or are too lazy to.

People saying other class/job combos will have this problem---not necessarily. The reason Arcanist jobs have this problem is because it's a DPS changing to a healer and vise versa. Will a pugilist have this problem when they add another job for that class? Probably not. Will a thaumaturge have that problem? Probably not.

The game is full of conflicts like this and they are directly opposed to the goal of the class system in the first place: that you can play what you want when you want. PvP is getting boned the absolute hardest at the moment to where you can only viably play one class/job.

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Actually Yoshi specifically said it was intended in a Live Letter.

Also for the person asking about a source for wanting multiple jobs from single classes. First, it's been well known, you should have seen it more than once at least, but since not.

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Q: What about “Summoner” coming from Arcanist? Two jobs from one class?
A: We mentioned before in a Live Letter that we didn’t want one job per class and that classes will branch off in the future. In the future players can imagine more classes having multiple job paths. Players like jobs such as Ninja or Samurai, whether they will be jobs from different classes is to be determined, or even if they’re in at all! Arcanist will have Carbuncle pet, and Summoner will have “Egi” versions of Primals such as Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda.

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Doesn't matter if it's intentional. It's dumb.

When pugilist gets another job that relies on STR, or when thaumaturge gets another job that relies on INT, they are going to have multiple NON-GIMPED jobs at their disposal, with just that one class leveled.

It will just be sch/smn (and other classes that have jobs with differing roles) who are screwed over, because the design is messed up.

All these arguments that say sch/smn deserve to be gimped because of them sharing a class will mean nothing then.

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Originally Posted by casker

Doesn't matter if it's intentional. It's dumb.

When pugilist gets another job that relies on STR, or when thaumaturge gets another job that relies on INT, they are going to have multiple NON-GIMPED jobs at their disposal, with just that one class leveled.

It will just be sch/smn (and other classes that have jobs with differing roles) who are screwed over, because the design is messed up.

All these arguments that say sch/smn deserve to be gimped because of them sharing a class will mean nothing then.

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Again, as I told the other person, I don't think it's dumb, nor do other people. People really don't want to have to make any choices, do they.

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Originally Posted by casker

Doesn't matter if it's intentional. It's dumb.

When pugilist gets another job that relies on STR, or when thaumaturge gets another job that relies on INT, they are going to have multiple NON-GIMPED jobs at their disposal, with just that one class leveled.

It will just be sch/smn (and other classes that have jobs with differing roles) who are screwed over, because the design is messed up.

All these arguments that say sch/smn deserve to be gimped because of them sharing a class will mean nothing then.

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I can easily see the second monk job relying on DEX or the thaumaturge job that relying on PIE instead. Especially the second, killing yourself to cast Meteor is a fine series tradition.

Choices? More like Dilemma.

Scholar and Summoner dilemma: Which class do I gimp harder, and by how much?

On the other hand---

When pugilist gets, hypothetically, let's just say "black belt" for a job, their choices: NONE. Go for STR for monk, and STR for black belt.

Scholar and Summoner are getting gimped. Pugilist and Black Belt wont. This is intentional for you guys and you don't see a problem. Please.

"what other people think" is not an argument on it's own. Stop it. That's just ad populum.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

I can easily see the second monk job relying on DEX or the thaumaturge job that relying on PIE instead. Especially the second, killing yourself to cast Meteor is a fine series tradition.

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I can too, the point is just to illustrate that the system won't necesssarily gimp ALL jobs to the same degree. People are saying sch/smn deserve to have this dilemma because they come from one class, but eventually, what if there is a class with two jobs that use the same stat? By people's arguments around here, they would deserve to be gimped too, but they wouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by casker

Choices? More like Dilemma.

Scholar and Summoner dilemma: Which class do I gimp harder, and by how much?

On the other hand---

When pugilist gets, hypothetically, let's just say "black belt" for a job, their choices: NONE. Go for STR for monk, and STR for black belt.

Scholar and Summoner are getting gimped. Pugilist and Black Belt wont. This is intentional for you guys and you don't see a problem. Please.

"what other people think" is not an argument on it's own. Stop it. That's just ad populum.

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Saying it's dumb isn't an argument on it's own either. Also, you're assuming other jobs won't have the same problem, when they very well could. Not to mention it doesn't actually CAUSE any problems. I play everything, that includes Scholar and Summoner. I went with 23 MND/7 INT because it balanced the amount each job had compared to the other. I have no issue with any content on EITHER of them. I've done Coil on both of them just fine.

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Originally Posted by casker

When pugilist gets, hypothetically, let's just say "black belt" for a job, their choices: NONE. Go for STR for monk, and STR for black belt.

Scholar and Summoner are getting gimped. Pugilist and Black Belt wont. This is intentional for you guys and you don't see a problem. Please.

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Not necessarily. Let's say they add Dancer and give it hand to hand, basing it off PGL. Now say that DNC needs INT to for its skills because it's dealing debuffs. Now you have to decide to go STR or INT.

Or they add Thief and give it dagger. Say it needs STR. But since it uses dagger it's based off GLD and you've dumped all your points into VIT. Do you gimp your GLD to play THF?

At some point every class will have to deal with it. I suggest stockpiling Keeper's Hymns now.

This is the reason Keepers Hymm is in the game people. If you want to play both classes to max effectiveness, grab a few of those and there you go. The system was intended to work this way, and will likely happen to all other classes in the future (I recall hints at Dark Knight being a dps off Gladiator). There seems to be little reason to argue about this, come on.

Also, people saying 11 did the multi class system better stat wise, merit system says hi.

There was an argument there that you conveniently ignored just because I also called it dumb. Your post was strictly ad populum followed by a strawman.

I'm not assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. I only brought up a HYPOTHETICAL to show that, in the case of a class having two jobs that share a stat on the same class, they won't be gimped in the same way that people are saying SCH/SMN deserve to be gimped.

On the other hand, in order to say that SMN/SCH deserve to have to deal with this stupid stat system, you have to assume that EVERY SINGLE NEW JOB will have to deal with it too.

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Originally Posted by casker

I'm not assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. I only brought up a HYPOTHETICAL to show that, in the case of a class having two jobs that share a stat on the same class, they won't be gimped in the same way that people are saying SCH/SMN deserve to be gimped.

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It's all hypothetical. So is your concept that there may, at some point, be a class that won't have this issue, which I personally consider unlikely. I think Arcanist is a preview of what's to come and that every single class will have to deal with this. I think they'll go out of their way to make it happen.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

Not necessarily. Let's say they add Dancer and give it hand to hand, basing it off PGL. Now say that DNC needs INT to for its skills because it's dealing debuffs. Now you have to decide to go STR or INT.

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I don't deny that other jobs will have to deal with it. That's not the point.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

At some point every class will have to deal with it. I suggest stockpiling Keeper's Hymns now.

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This is where you're making the assumption that I already mentioned. You are assuming that EVERY class will have this problem. Not necessarily, and I already showed the black belt example.

The point is that, in the case of a job that shares the points, they will not be gimped in the same way that people say sch/smn deserve to be gimped, or that other hypothetical jobs will be gimped.

When you tell people to stockpile hymns, you are basically saying to grind a whoooooole lot. And with the frequency that people change jobs in this game, as they were designed to frequently change jobs, hymns are a poor solution that only exist to extend grind, and nobody can grind enough to keep pace with how often they switch jobs.

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Originally Posted by casker

There was an argument there that you conveniently ignored just because I also called it dumb. Your post was strictly ad populum followed by a strawman.

I'm not assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. I only brought up a HYPOTHETICAL to show that, in the case of a class having two jobs that share a stat on the same class, they won't be gimped in the same way that people are saying SCH/SMN deserve to be gimped.

On the other hand, in order to say that SMN/SCH deserve to have to deal with this stupid stat system, you have to assume that EVERY SINGLE NEW JOB will have to deal with it too.

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First, the only one saying "deserve" is you. I see where you feel it's being implied however, but that's not what's being said. We have no idea if they chose to do it this way because you get the second job "for free" or not. And yes, you are assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. Same as others could assume they will have the same problem. Because we don't know yet.

For all we know they decided to do this for classes that branch into different roles and only those classes. ie if Archer turns into Ranger down the line and also uses DEX. Or perhaps the resulting jobs are designed with the stat split in mind. Maybe we should talk about how Scholar, even if you throw all 30 points into MND, is still worse off MND wise than WHM. Or does this go back around to the job being designed around the possibility of having bad stat allocations?

So no, we don't have to assume every new job will have to "deal" with it.

EDIT: This also isn't the type of argument with a clear right or wrong, which is what you seem to be pushing. People have views and opinions. People may like it the way it is and that in itself is not wrong.

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Originally Posted by casker

Doesn't matter if it's intentional. It's dumb.

When pugilist gets another job that relies on STR, or when thaumaturge gets another job that relies on INT, they are going to have multiple NON-GIMPED jobs at their disposal, with just that one class leveled.

It will just be sch/smn (and other classes that have jobs with differing roles) who are screwed over, because the design is messed up.

All these arguments that say sch/smn deserve to be gimped because of them sharing a class will mean nothing then.

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How is the design screwed up. Arcanist was not meant to be a healer so the class stats are in line with SMN because SMN relies on INT. When you equip the Soul Stone on Aracinst MND is now boosted in line with WHM and int is lowered. So in a nut shell they stated SCH and SMN will not share stats meaning SCH will not be an INT based healer so they will not share the same endgame gear. Each Soul boost the Main stats for the appropriate Job. A job may have the same primary stats as the class but if you unequip a soul you will notice that the stats allocation across the board is different.

I thing SE should just remove the 1 point stat allocation entirely because as ilvl of gear increase these stats will mean very little and people are making a mountain over a mole hill regarding 30 stat points.

If SE is to keep the stat boost increase as you level then I do think the 10k seals to respec is too high. It should needs to be lowered in the instance were a player may be asked to be a SMN in some content and others SCH. 10K seals seems too restrictive, maybe 3k. Currently with Arcanist being the only class with 2 jobs the cost should be removed, but say a limit to respect per day until other jobs are added.

I'm a developer too and I'm no stranger to the face-saving "working as intended" line.

The job system "encourages" quick switching between different classes / jobs. If the game is so angled toward playing one character with multiple jobs, why arbitrarily force segregation between two of them?

It's not like it makes practical sense. If I can go from DRG to BRD to BLM and back in 10s, I should be able to do the same for SMN / SCH if I so wanted.

To those using the "well it's one class for 2 Jobs" argument, sure. I would even prefer they got rid of the split and made you level another 50 SCH or SMN independently. At least then you'd be able to work up to having instant (and optimal) switch between what could be two of your favorite jobs.

That's the point. This smells strongly of oversight. If this was game design "working as intended" truly, they wouldn't have shoved ACN on this boat all on its own, but rather presented each class with their own "dilemma."

Well the thing is, they announced they wouldn't use the same stats before we could even play ACN. Threads like this popped up at that time too. They didn't go anywhere either, SE stuck with their decision.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Well the thing is, they announced they wouldn't use the same stats before we could even play ACN. Threads like this popped up at that time too. They didn't go anywhere either, SE stuck with their decision.

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Sure, but that could be for any number of reasons. At the end of the day I don't care to call devs out for what could be laziness or just awkward design choices. At the end of the day they've implemented something in their class / job system design that causes discontent and grinds against the core philosophy this MMO uses as a selling point against others.

I'll leave it at this: I'd be happy with either making you grind to 50 twice for either job, or just getting rid of the attribute point allocations once there are more job "splits."

I kinda agree that ACN shouldn't be able to get 2 50s for the price of one, but I don't like where it's at right now, either.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

It's all hypothetical. So is your concept that there may, at some point, be a class that won't have this issue, which I personally consider unlikely. I think Arcanist is a preview of what's to come and that every single class will have to deal with this. I think they'll go out of their way to make it happen.

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So you think it's more likely that every single job will have stat conflicts, than will there be just one single job that uses the same stat of an existing job.

Never mind the suggestion of stockpiling The Keeper's Hymn is flawed when it's 10,000 seals for one. I know that's not 'a lot', but it comes out to roughly 40 FATEs in the 40-50 range. I don't know about your servers, but FATEs all but died for higher levels after 2.1 with the exception of maybe 2-3 groups in Northern Thanalan if you're lucky. That still makes most FATEs take anywhere from 5-10 minutes each, so you're looking at upwards of 7 hours to get enough seals to change point allocation once IF there's no weight time between FATEs (there still is even with only a few groups doing them) and if your travel time is almost nonexistent. Never mind that you're also spending gil on repairs then and gaining little out of it if you already have jobs at 50.

Now what if you were trying to play SCH for one endgame group and SMN for another? It's not viable to keep changing your points back and forth. Luckily 30 mind does almost nothing for SCH, but it could make a difference depending on the raid/dungeon for your SMN (not to mention, it's irritating for min/max players). Also, if you try to argue rolling on items in WP or something to trade in for seals, that's not any more time efficient.

Also, they're gonna have to revamp the entire Traits system to be able to make multiple jobs stem from the same class. Otherwise you're going to have classes turning out almost exactly the same, or shared traits even more useless. It works well enough for SCH/SMN because you have completely different pets thrown into the mix, and all of SCH's defining abilities fall under the 5 provided unlocked job abilities. I think it'd be extremely bland to do this with everything and not really the best of ideas. Jobs are cookie cutter enough as is.

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Originally Posted by casker

So you think it's more likely that every single job will have stat conflicts, than will there be just one single job that uses the same stat of an existing job.

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Yes. I think they'll make a point of it.

me i wouldnt mind if instead of unlocking stats at lvl 10, it would be at lvl 30 when you unlock SMN you gain stats bonus FOR Smn, when you unlock SCH at 30 you get stat bonus FOR Sch. So when switch to arcanist the stat on Sch or Smn is gonne ...cos only appear on Smn or Sch job. Ain't that better

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Originally Posted by Zepheron

/snip

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You know how much difference 30 MND makes? About +15 on your heals. Thats it! That 30 in MND or INT only makes a difference if you min/max. As the difference is minimal at best. Is healing for 1000 or 1015 really going to make much difference?

So dont overestimate the importance of 30 points to call a job "gimped".

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Originally Posted by casker

On the other hand---

When pugilist gets, hypothetically, let's just say "black belt" for a job, their choices: NONE. Go for STR for monk, and STR for black belt.

Scholar and Summoner are getting gimped. Pugilist and Black Belt wont. This is intentional for you guys and you don't see a problem. Please.

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Everyone who played after 1.21 can see that the 2nd job from pugilist could get Int instead of Str

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Originally Posted by YeaniNah

me i wouldnt mind if instead of unlocking stats at lvl 10, it would be at lvl 30 when you unlock SMN you gain stats bonus FOR Smn, when you unlock SCH at 30 you get stat bonus FOR Sch. So when switch to arcanist the stat on Sch or Smn is gonne ...cos only appear on Smn or Sch job. Ain't that better

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No stat bonus for the class? The stat bonuses for the jobs are already in the soul stones.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You can. I have stats allocated for SMN. I can still play SCH just fine. Heck, sometimes you'll even see a SCH or WHm reallocated points to VIT for turn 5 because the extra mind doesn't make the difference between winning and losing.

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Even for Titan, that extra 300 HP with 30 points in Vit can push your HP into the safe zone to cover for any mistakes if you are only in darklight. Aka survivinf eating a bomb, or a plume.