If Titan HM should have taught you one lesson...

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

The post heart EX-bombs with the egi drops and the multi-way landslide are different enough. I can't fault folks if they get panicked and eat a bomb or a landslide at that point.

I also had my own opinion about Primal buyers, but had to see it for myself. I've fought alongside a good chunk of them and they were quite impressive. My confusion, I guess, is that there are so many primal buyers out there, skilled, diverse enough in their roles and on at the same time, that if they formed groups, they could clear the content and collectively save millions of gil.

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Some people are just fed up with trying to find that perfect group though and rather pay people who can win it easily so that they not have to deal with that frustration.

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Some people are just fed up with trying to find that perfect group though and rather pay people who can win it easily so that they not have to deal with that frustration.

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I'll be working on my third Relic pretty soon, earned the first two myself and nearly tore my hair out. If I can pay a group to just get me through it without having to worry about days if not weeks of failing, thank you. For the amount of time I spent failing on Titan HM on my first 2 Relics, I could have gathered and crafted enough stuff to make 3-5 times what most groups are charging now for clears.

Don't confuse latency with skill

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Originally Posted by CompSci88

Why are you two playing on different servers in the 1st place. Transfer and help each other.

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Shes an RPer in an RP guild on Balmung (which I guess is the unofficial RP server) I have zero interest in RP, and RP is the only reason she can stick with a MMO. The guild I am in chose Siren, I might transfer if the activity decreases, kinda hard to break away after 7 years being in the same guild.

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Originally Posted by Rosy

Have any of the self righteous players posting here, actually HAD to use Duty Finder to do Titan HM? I suggest you give it a try before you scorn "buyers".

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Took 2 attempts (first group gave up quick), as a solo duty finder full i60 Bard with like 3400 hp (I put on a couple tanking Acc. for HP). Just did it for LoLz.

So hard.

Yes I got lucky, yes I was carried.
Yes I paid 0 Gil for my kill.

I don't get the negative social stigma behind buying and selling carry runs. I always thought this was a really cool and creative way to make money in a game like this. Reading through this thread and hearing people talk about it in game, the complaints about it generally fall under the same categories...

"Bad players shouldn't get rewards they don't deserve"

Suppose a player is unable to defeat Boss X through conventional means. He simply lacks the player skill, internet quality, and/or playtime to learn the fight and complete it without a carry. However, this player has the business sense, crafting skill and/or patience to earn enough Gil to pay other players to carry him so he can defeat Boss X.

To you, a piece of loot may also be a trophy to prove that you possess the player skill to defeat the boss who drops said loot. That's a valid and commonly-shared belief but it might not be one that some other players agree with. Who are you to decide whether or not this player is entitled to this piece of loot? Who are you to impose your beliefs on someone else who has found an alternative means to get this piece of loot?

To me, the notion that gear quality and rewards should separate good players from the bad is a crappy and elitist attitude. If everyone would just focus on their own enjoyment of the game and maybe people wouldn't be so butthurt that a lesser-skilled player was able to accomplish the same goals that they have. They might not be as good as you, but they found a way to get what they want and enjoy the game.


"Sellers indirectly support RMT and keep RMT companies in business."

The truth is this: ANYTHING that gives Gil value will indirectly support RMT. That is simply the nature of any in-game currency in an MMO. One common (and very valid) complaint about this game is that Gil barely has any value, outside of FC housing. Crafts have some value, but crafted gear can only get you so far. So yes, it's true. In a game where its design trivializes its own in-game currency, if a player is able to purchase carries with Gil, it certainly does give Gil more value and therefore indirectly supports RMT.

However, let me ask you this: Is it the player's duty to keep RMT under control? And to that end, should they put a conscious effort into further trivializing the in-game currency by NOT selling runs? Should players be playing the game any differently than they would normally want to, in order to assist in the battle against RMT? If this is what you suggest, than the battle against RMT is already lost. People are compromising their own enjoyment because of RMT, and the damage is done.

My opinion: Play the game how you want to play. Leave it to Square Enix to police RMT. That's their job, not ours. As long as you are complying with the terms of service, hell yeah you should do what you want, even if that means selling runs for Gil in order to further accomplish your goals in-game.


"Selling carries is greedy. Players should improve the community by helping other players for free."

First of all, this completely contradicts the first point I mentioned: "Bad players shouldn't get rewards they don't deserve." Why is it okay for bad players to get carried out of charity, but not okay for bad players to get carried in exchange for money? In each case, a bad player is getting rewards they they apparently don't deserve. Why is one okay and one not, when the end is the same?

Anyway, every player has their own goals and selfish motives in this game. Players want to get gear, players want to earn money, players want to buy housing, etc... A merc transaction is simply two players helping each other accomplish their goals. The buyer wants items and is willing to give up money to get it. The seller wants money and is willing to provide a means for the buyer to get items. Seems fair to me, and both parties are helping each other.

Outside of that, who's to say that sellers don't help people for free? I've been selling Extreme Primals for a little while now, but our team spends just as much time carrying friends and even strangers through Extreme Primals just for fun. I've even been organizing Titan EX learning parties, teaching players how to beat Titan and earning it legitimately. All I get out of it is a warm fuzzy feeling and some Philo tomes. I've earned a lot of Gil selling runs, but I think a lot of people would be hard pressed to say that they help their server's community more than I help mine.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

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Well said, I personally agree. Just to play devil's advocate though; the stigma is mostly because it feels like you're cheating. It's kinda like the lazy kid in your class who doesn't study but he's savvy enough to earn his own money to bribe his way past the exams.

After doing Titan HM legit, 3 times through party and duty finder, (2x dps 1 x healer) I have some sympathy for run buyers. It's really hard to get a cohesive/competent group. Thankfully on my last success I got a great group through party finder, and we quickly downed him in 2 attempts, with only 1 dps dead by the end. That is far beyond the norm however. I kinda just want to buy one for my paladin relic, but thankfully i heard tanking him is relatively easy.

3 of my relics were with Pugs, I do relic primals fights daily just do help out random people to complete their quest.

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Originally Posted by kayuwoody

Well said, I personally agree. Just to play devil's advocate though; the stigma is mostly because it feels like you're cheating. It's kinda like the lazy kid in your class who doesn't study but he's savvy enough to earn his own money to bribe his way past the exams.

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Fair enough. But there is a huge relevant difference wth your analogy. The kid who bribed for better grades might affect the grading curve, thus harming the grades of other students. Or he might get scholarships thus depriving someone else of that scholarship. Other students are being negatively affected. Meanwhile, in FFXIV: A player who bought his Extreme Primal clear has an i90 weapon and some accessories. This does not negatively affect anyone else.

It affects others when they attempt harder content with a raised item level, and they die every attempt.

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Originally Posted by Makado

It affects others when they attempt harder content with a raised item level, and they die every attempt.

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This is true of all people that were carried, not just the ones who paid for it.

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Originally Posted by Makado

It affects others when they attempt harder content with a raised item level, and they die every attempt.

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You could reach any item level without even attempting any difficult content. i90 is attainable solely with Myth tokens. So, your notion of using item level as a reliable means to filter out noobs wouldn't work anyway.

By your logic, Myth tokens would be equally harmful, if not more harmful, to your precious noob-free high iLvl Party Finder groups.

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Originally Posted by Rosy

Have any of the self righteous players posting here, actually HAD to use Duty Finder to do Titan HM? I suggest you give it a try before you scorn "buyers". Go on...give it a try and tell me how many weeks it took you to find a half decent group to do it, don't cheat and use a Linkshell group or a guild group....go into Duty Finder on your own and do it.

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I just had to comment on this..and I probably won't come back...but...

Don't...cheat? and use your friends? Like how an MMO SHOULD be? If you had a company or linkshell capable...you can do multiple runs of Titan HM easily without buying it. I do relics in one day with my friends. Why would you waste your time on pick up groups. Make friends. IT'S AN MMO

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Originally Posted by Rex

I just had to comment on this..and I probably won't come back...but...

Don't...cheat? and use your friends? Like how an MMO SHOULD be? If you had a company or linkshell capable...you can do multiple runs of Titan HM easily without buying it. I do relics in one day with my friends. Why would you waste your time on pick up groups. Make friends. IT'S AN MMO

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I believe what he is trying to say is that people without many friends or at least enough capable friend to help with Titan Hard Mode will have a difficult time in the Duty Finder. People like you and me are lucky to have many friends to do these with, but not everyone has that luxury; some people are in small Companies with few members around that item level; others are online at anti-social times.

Not to get away from the point behind all this though; some people can't form premades of experienced players, so they hire some instead.

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Originally Posted by Ashira

Stuffs

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Why are you replying to that guy when it's obvious he either doesn't know how to read or can't comprehend what he is reading.

I carry ppl for free because one person on my friends list ninja invites me and makes me do it :x Must have done 50+ runs this week carrying ppl that can't dodge plumes or landsides but w/e. I don't fault ppl for buying or selling runs, people that are against it need to try duty finding it for 100 runs and see how many of those runs are successful.

Out of curiousity, how much are Titan HM runs sold for on your servers? On Behemoth I've seen it up towards 2mil. As for the rmt argument, could be valid as you never know who maybe selling gil to the gil sellers.

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Originally Posted by Low_Kick

Why are you replying to that guy when it's obvious he either doesn't know how to read or can't comprehend what he is reading.

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Reason.

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Originally Posted by Wulfyn

Out of curiousity, how much are Titan HM runs sold for on your servers? On Behemoth I've seen it up towards 2mil. As for the rmt argument, could be valid as you never know who maybe selling gil to the gil sellers.

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On Cerberus people sell runs for around 200,000g though my Company do them for about half that, since we have three spots to fill and don't want to be stood around ages between runs.

Since the pricing is different on each server, I'll give you an around about estimate; 100,000g is roughly the cost of a Vanya Robe of Healing.

It has its valid points but I would hate to see it become to where you have no choice but to hire mercs because no one will help with it. That said your server price is cheap while on Behemoth it is basically gouging other players and alot don't have that much gil to toss. That's where I get irritated with it. At most I presently have only 79k lol, so I will probably just grind tomes for relic +1 and try later. Who knows maybe I'll get Mog Fork to stick it to Titan HM.

I'm all for selling runs, Its just charity runs that bother the hell out of me.

On Gilgamesh they have been sold for 90k, I'm not up to date for how much it is now.
T5 for 5 mil

I very, very rarely see one sold on Siren, and when I do, ~100k. It used to be ~700k before 2.1.

Half tempted to get one, on my 4th relic, and finding a group that can complete it is frustrating.

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Originally Posted by RinKaen

I'm all for selling runs, Its just charity runs that bother the hell out of me.

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Why do they bother you? So, some noob who doesn't know how to kill bosses and doesn't know how to make money has an i90 weapon. Who cares?

btw, the topic was more telling about HM would be better to teach us, we can't be touch by a bomb, i am right about that... for EX you can even not take a plumes, you have to be more skilled than HM that's all.
And about the one who buy titan hm don't mean them is not skilled, it's laziness, them can have a relic asap or try very hard to find a good group.
anyone who want the relic very fast, what the option he will choose?, strong mind will say i don't buy something i can get free, other will say it's not free, you may save time even with the time you need to save the gils.
btw relic don't mean you are skilled for every content, it mean you win titan HM (buy or legit)

Had to do Titan HM again yesterday for another relic, and it was at a time almost nobody of my FC or LS was online, so I just picked a single guy of my FC and let the rest join via party finder. Give it a chance, so why not, I thought. Well, we ended up having a group after 5 mins, mid-fight half of them leaving because Odin spawned. Okay, bad luck. They rejoined our group after Odin and we tried Titan again, ending up with a one-shot. Really never ever had such a great and awesome party for Titan!

well yeah, just have a good party help, if you just have win it couple of times and have a party as skilled than you, no way to loose it.
Titan HM can be easy , just need to know it by the heart by everyone.

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Originally Posted by Low_Kick

Why are you replying to that guy when it's obvious he either doesn't know how to read or can't comprehend what he is reading.

I carry ppl for free because one person on my friends list ninja invites me and makes me do it :x Must have done 50+ runs this week carrying ppl that can't dodge plumes or landsides but w/e. I don't fault ppl for buying or selling runs, people that are against it need to try duty finding it for 100 runs and see how many of those runs are successful.

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HEHE LOW~~ don't you love me so much!? XD

Here's the issue I see. Too many people assume that someone's who's paid for a completion sucks. That's terrible logic. The person who's paid for a completion is tired of the constant face bashing to get it to work. I paid for a Titan HM completion, not because I couldn't do it, but because I couldn't find a group to get it done.

Primal's are not about single effort, it's about the group as a whole. I am stuck at Titan Extreme for various reasons. As a BLM dps, a single mistake kills me, even if I dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge, if everyone else can't, it's a failed run. The mechanics are brutal, not impossible, just brutal. Stop thinking it's individually based and realize the bigger picture. It's tough finding a group that makes no mistakes.

I guess I was one of the lucky ones that had no problems with titan HM on DF. Nothing against people who buy spots to leech wins/drops that's just part of the territory with MMOs. A guild eventually will get to a point where they no longer require item from X zone so only incentive to run X zone; money. DF main problem is lack of communication for most part. Prior to each run boss definitely making sure everyone knows what to do or what to look out for can make a difference in determining a win or loss. At least in my experience tho you may still get those random melee mages

Personally not against hiring mercenaries or being mercenaries for these fights as long as it's not RMT. I used to have laggy internet something about around 500 ms ping so it did prevent me from dodging titan sure-kill-unresurectable move like land slide. I just luckly enough to have a good FC mate that understand and cope with my problem. I died and got carried, but later on my internet got better the ping goes down to 39-50 ms. I have less problem.

It did feel freedom to do what you want you can be mercs or hire them as you like. It's fun to have a game that open enough to do things like that.

And for those that have problems with noobs that brought their runs, I think you try expect every one you found on DF a noob, so you will know you will have to teach them and work out the scenario together. If you don't want to you can just put up PF and describe your condition.

In my case I would love to have a relic but my latency makes it virtually impossible to dodge many aoes I will attempt the primals, but if I find my latency is too high I will not handicap a legitimate group and will see if anyone on Tonberry will sell a run at a reasonable price. That said I will farm my little heart out for the money. Though I have accrued a bit already, I would never buy Gil and I am totally aware that I can never go any further in the game because of said latency apart from upgrading my relic. For me I just want the relic to complete my character and technical issues may prevent this and I don't want to drag others down with me.

On normal mode titan I would get hit with landslides when I was the other side of the arena that's how bad it is :(


edit first try got to heart phase, didn't quite get it down, second go got to post heart phase without dying :) but then got tumulted down to a sliver of health and couldn't quite make it out of weight of the land doh. But not too bad for first go. I wasn't the first to die but everyone else died shortly after. Then they voted to abandon. We'll see how it goes maybe I can do it without a run after all :D I can get out of landslides with my latency but am going to have to get used to predicting weight of the lands so I can start running early, it'll probably take a few runs but hopefully I can do it :) And I was also worried about Garuda as I had trouble with her normal form but the hard mode is cake. I'd put it as the easiest primal, though on Ifrit we had two warriors so no eruptions got interrupted and didn't get a three bar limit for the nails, that said we one shot him as we did Garuda :)

further edit - second run DF group and we did it second go. Yay :)

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Originally Posted by Sassi666

further edit - second run DF group and we did it second go. Yay :)

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Conspankulations on your relic :)