Please Undercut Wisely

Supply and demand. There's a higher supply than demand. Not to mention people are willing to massively reduce the price of what they're selling when they have enough stuff to sell that selling it fast by undercutting outweighs what they lose from lowering the price.

People willing to massively undercut are usually not interested in the market of an item. They don't regularly sell that item every day, every week, every month, like a job, as you do. They have a supply of something they want to unload, and they don't care about the long term affect of that item in regard to profits days/weeks/months later. Holding that supply on the AH for days/weeks to try and squeeze out some pennies or ensure the long term value of an item on the markets hurts their profits more than undercutting a few thousand gil and being rid of it.

Also, some people purposely put up a very limited amount of something on the market, massively undercutting, because they know everyone else will start undercutting as a knee jerk reaction, and they'll try to drive down prices as low as they can, because the item is something they plan on buying large quantities of over the long term. If there's an item you plan on consistently buying, the market for it being floored is a good thing.

I make my money crafting. I buy ingredients in huge quantities and undercut by 1 til.I go as low as people drop it until they stop selling. I then put my prices back to my average sale price and it starts all over. I generally only sell finished items and make 20-300k daily. I find nothing wrong with the mb.

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

And i am not whining, I am trying to get whoever is reading this to realise, if you undercut by a ridiculous ammount, people will look at your price and undercut you..

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No if you drop it by a ridiculous amount technically most people don't drop it to match yours. Yours sells instantly and then people move on to buy from the other sellers. This ends up not true if you're able to keep putting more up as you're selling and this then forces other people to match your price. Not everyone also farms as hardcore as you. I rarely sell things on the market board and when I do I want it to sell as quickly as possible. Know why? I probably won't be dealing with the same product anytime soon so it's irrelevant to me if the price drops on what I'm selling.

That being said, if I want to buy an item in bulk I know how to get other people to drive the prices down for me. Then I buy what I want at a reduced cost.

Don't buy undercut stuff in an attempt to bring the price back up, I tried and got stuck with 10 stacks of cobalt ore and no money -_- (which I had to sell back for half the price I bout em for) Why am I so bad at making money!?

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Don't buy undercut stuff in an attempt to bring the price back up, I tried and got stuck with 10 stacks of cobalt ore and no money -_- (which I had to sell back for half the price I bout em for) Why am I so bad at making money!?

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That's because you picked a poor item to flip. If it was something in high demand like fleece, you might've had better luck. If you're trying to flip items, you better know the ins and outs of that market because otherwise, it's like going into the stock market without knowing what you're doing.

I see an awful lot of: item vendors for 6g@ and it's in the AH for 1g@. Honestly, why would somebody do that? And there will sometimes be 15-20 vendors in the list with the item in large multiple quantities and all that low. It really baffles me. If I was needing to get rid of items (to unclutter the bags or whatever), I'd vendor the dang stuff rather than lose money in the AH on it. I've decided maybe it's because there are some really stupid people out there.

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Originally Posted by FizT

I see an awful lot of: item vendors for 6g@ and it's in the AH for 1g@. Honestly, why would somebody do that? And there will sometimes be 15-20 vendors in the list with the item in large multiple quantities and all that low. It really baffles me. If I was needing to get rid of items (to unclutter the bags or whatever), I'd vendor the dang stuff rather than lose money in the AH on it. I've decided maybe it's because there are some really stupid people out there.

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I see a lot of this too. Even if you're selling it on the market for the same price a vendor would pay you'll get less because of the market 'tax.'

And for those people who think "I farmed all the materials myself, so I make a profit no matter what I sell it for," do yourself a favor and study up on the concept of opportunity costs.

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Originally Posted by FizT

I've decided maybe it's because there are some really stupid people out there.

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Never underestimate the vastness of human stupidity. Someone will always surprise you.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Never underestimate the vastness of human stupidity. Someone will always surprise you.

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This is so true right here!

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Or, I see yours for 100, list mine for 99, and have the best opportunity to make the sale. Anyone that says they don't undercut is either lying or a fool.

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okay you didnt read my OP.. it wasnt about undercutting in general.. it was about undercutting stupid ammounts and dragging down the market..

an undercut of 1-10gil is fine to ensure your item is at the top of the list and sells first.. but in the past 3 days something i crafted (not what i mentioned in the OP) dropped from 1800 to 1200.. i made 30 thats 18k loss straight off the bat from what i expected..

undercutting is fine.. its how you make a sale.. undercutting by 100s at a time is ridiculous

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Originally Posted by Inquisitor

And for those people who think "I farmed all the materials myself, so I make a profit no matter what I sell it for," do yourself a favor and study up on the concept of opportunity costs.

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I doubt anyone would take the time to learn economics for a video game. Even if you taught them, majority of them won't listen.

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

cted..

undercutting is fine.. its how you make a sale.. undercutting by 100s at a time is ridiculous

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again, basic laws of economics tell you it's absolutely not 'ridiculous'. the people who do that often do it for a reason.
sure, some are just 'stupid' and want to get rid of their stuff quickly, but you can usually tell if someone's plan is something entirely different. think about it for a while and you may actually get it, too ;)

you have no choice but to either destroy their plans - or just not play their game and wait until the price rises again. (which may or may not happen)

a lot of people use MMO markets for their own kind of game and literally do nothing else. when I was still in business school one of my coursemates actually did a paper on this very thing and how there's an entire 'culture' of this in EvE for example.

I'm getting real sick of people undercutting NQ items with HQ items. How hard is it to price things normally?

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Originally Posted by Hiraki

I'm getting real sick of people undercutting NQ items with HQ items. How hard is it to price things normally?

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ah, but the real question is...... what is normal? ^.^

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Originally Posted by FizT

I see an awful lot of: item vendors for 6g@ and it's in the AH for 1g@. Honestly, why would somebody do that? And there will sometimes be 15-20 vendors in the list with the item in large multiple quantities and all that low. It really baffles me. If I was needing to get rid of items (to unclutter the bags or whatever), I'd vendor the dang stuff rather than lose money in the AH on it. I've decided maybe it's because there are some really stupid people out there.

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Fixed that for you!

I mean, I'm kinda happy there are so many suckers since it's like taking free gil from people giving it away, but they're definitely not being smart.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

ah, but the real question is...... what is normal? ^.^

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This is true lol but yea if HQ is 750 and NQ is 500 why in the world would someone put HQ for 499 ._.

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Originally Posted by Hiraki

This is true lol but yea if HQ is 750 and NQ is 500 why in the world would someone put HQ for 499 ._.

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Step 1: Undercut NQ items with HQ items.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

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Originally Posted by diulalasing

Yea, everyone was selling this item fro 2500, and I went and undercut it to 2480, then 2 hours later, bam, everyone was selling at 2k


I was like WTF


I don't know why people want to sabotage their profit margin that badly

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That's why I gave up trying to craft to sell stuff :/ It was actually costing me gil to make things that usually sold for a decent amount. A few weeks ago there was an item (forgot which) selling for 19k, so I put mine up for 18,990. Within half an hour it was down to 10k, thing is, the next price above that was 12k, nothing in between that and mine -.-

Same problem that always happens - morons flood the market looking for a fast buck with little care to the overall health of the economy.

Unfortunately you can't fix stupid.

Yet another thread on undercutting. I'm sorry but undercutting is just another term for "The world revolves around me and I set the market prices for everyone", LoL. Welcome to the real world. People have been selling their wares in MMO, and real life, for lower prices than the competition.

I have seen many items selling for example around 2000G, I would go to a vendor and find it for less than half. ROFLMAO. Really?!! Come on, go get a feel for the market in all its facets. If I saw the above discrepancy in prices so have many other people, and they are not going to buy from you. This is smart economics for the seller part and the buyer.

Supply and Demand rules, and smart competition, is what drives any economy. If you are buying the materials to make your items, then you are crazy. I gather all my stuff, and barely buy anything from vendors; all profit. Play the economy mini-game smart, and whining is not going to get you anything; just like in the real world.

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Originally Posted by Dragon_Lord

If you are buying the materials to make your items, then you are crazy. I gather all my stuff, and barely buy anything from vendors; all profit. Play the economy mini-game smart, and whining is not going to get you anything; just like in the real world.

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If you believe economics is that simple, you're not nearly as smart as you think you are.

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

So while you think you are being smart by dropping the price by 100 for a quick sale, you are actually dragging the average price of the item down and its really bloody irritating..

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It's amazing how much affect one single person can have on the market. A few hours of farming and I can drop the prices of various items by thousands of gil, turn around and buy a bunch more at the reduced price and use it to level my crafting.

People that don't understand a supply and demand market.

When the game started Supply was very limited, As people where only level DoW DoM,
3-4 months in People are leveling other things.

Supply goes up big time.

people find out crafted items basically pointless demand isn't there. Prices will crash.

Smart people get any gil they can because the prices are going down.

I'm 'that' guy I guess...

See, I farm just about everything I sell so everything is profit.
My inventory fills up faster than I can sell everything, so I am going to undercut a fair amount to where I still feel like I'm making a pretty good profit.
If I'm not undercutting then I'm not making any profit, and my items just sit in my inventory.

This is a free market, supply and demand, etc... That's just the way it is, I'm sorry.


(:

On My Server I am currently Selling Mithril Ingot HQ *950 of thoes for 500 just because I can Hate me for it xd

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

I'm sorry - a profit is not ridiculous, nor does it require you, for example to undercut my 4.5k item to 1.7k because you find it "ridiculous." As I said in another topic, SE should auto ban people who purposefully undercut items into oblivion.

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Or they should banish people like you who are gouging people. It works both ways. A fair price-and profit-is determined by the player base, not the seller. Do I undercut, yes. Why, because I want to free up selling slots and make space for the new stuff I craft. Do I care about the profit, no. Why? Because I don't flip materials I make stuff from scratch. As long as I make more than selling to an NPC, which is 95% of the time, I'm good. I've more than doubled the money I had from version 1.0 in crafting alone, and I'm only in the 30's. There is plenty of profit to be had and it really doesn't take that much effort.

Actually, I see the market wards working as intended ;p

When FFXIV first released, everything (that I wanted to sell) was dirt cheap. So I didn't sell it. I waited. For example, I wanted to see if selling some of my 4k+ shards would be worth it. It wasnt at first...shards were selling for 1 gil each. So I held onto them...now they're up to between 60-100+ gil each, and I made a much better profit. (Of course I didnt sell them all as I plan to use some of them for my crafting jobs later) Because I knew eventually, people would run out of the shards they had from 1.x and they would have to be farmed, making supply a bit harder.

As for undercutting...for the most part, I usually dont do it depending on how many of the items are up, and how fast they sell. If it's a hard sale, then yeah, I'll undercut...but not by much. If the item is up for 1,235 gil, it drives me crazy, I like nice, even numbers, so I'll sell for 1,200 gil. (I'm ocd) Or, if the item is worthless for a few items, I buy those and resell them for what they're really worth.

It all comes down to supply and demand. Remember this is a videogame, not reality....so supplies can be made more easily by people. Once that supply is depleted, depending on the demand, the price will rise again. Just be patient. Like I was with my shards. After all, this is a new economy from 1.0...even on Legacy servers (which is what I play on), so it'll take a while for the prices to stabilize a bit more....but there will always be undercutting and price changes. It is a public market after all.

The life as a Salesmen is but a hard one. It's interesting to see how things play here.
Never really been into the Marketing business in games.
Shit's tough but pretty fun trying to sale things before someone tries to undercut you
to living hell. I just make random ass numbers.
Someone selling for 1k.
I sell for 987g and that get's sold big time. I'm usually fair with prices in this other game
but no! I must make cash in this game. It's kinda hard but fun.

While market prices seems quite volatile in this game, complaining about gouging or undercutting is quite silly. Thats the nature of the beast, and what ultimately is supposed to result into some sort of market equilibrium by eliminating extremes.

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

Or they should banish people like you who are gouging people.

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I don't recall gouging anyone, unless in your definition of gouging = anything over 200g. Let's use an example of what I've been making:

Sauteed Coeurl -

1x Fire Cluster - 308g single
1x Water Cluster - 310g single
1x Garlean Garlic - 5g per single
1x Smooth Butter - 8g (x2 milk)
1x Coeurl Meat - 140g per single
1x Cooking Sherry - 2,000g single
1x Volcanic Rock Salt - 320g nq single, 450g HQ

That's if I buy all the mats, which totals at present times, 3,091 cost, I sell for 4,100 singles or in sets of 5 for 20,500. So in reality, I'm actually barely making a profit as I don't gouge people, if I buy everything instead of farming it myself I made a 3 -4k profit depending on market, but the nice thing is, since many barely can do 1-2star stuff, those markets tends to be stable.

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I've more than doubled the money I had from version 1.0 in crafting alone

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Let's be honest, given that they chopped off a digit it's not that hard since your gil is worth less (or more depending on how you look at it.)

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

Or they should banish people like you who are gouging people. It works both ways. A fair price-and profit-is determined by the player base, not the seller. Do I undercut, yes. Why, because I want to free up selling slots and make space for the new stuff I craft. Do I care about the profit, no. Why? Because I don't flip materials I make stuff from scratch. As long as I make more than selling to an NPC, which is 95% of the time, I'm good. I've more than doubled the money I had from version 1.0 in crafting alone, and I'm only in the 30's. There is plenty of profit to be had and it really doesn't take that much effort.

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Everyone sells items to make a profit. If you didn't care, you wouldn't sell anything.

Also, this is a video game economy. It's pure capitalism with no moral high ground, so I don't understand why you think making less money makes you a better person.

Aside from a few items that move in reliable quantity like shards or Fleece, pretty much everything in this game has very little value because the supply is effectively infinite and the demand for it is very minimal. In fact, most of the demand is from other crafters, which makes the whole thing a Ponzi scam. It is imperative to move your goods before the prices spiral toward somewhere around 10Xnumber of clicks (1 gathered item = 1 click) as they already do if you're aware of what's going on.

Also I think people way overestimate the value of '1 click'. I dumped a ton of crawler cocoons and Twinthreads back when they were expensive. I'm sure some guys tried to buy them out to keep the market 'stable', so I just dump another 300 crawler cocoons until the price finally crashed. It actually takes less than 1 click to gather 1 crawler cocoon (because you get 3-5) and sure there's a time limit but it's not like it takes much effort to teleport to East Shroud when you see in game time is around 1am. I know people like to think getting a DoL to level 50 is somehow a valuable asset, but it really is not, and all it takes is one guy who doesn't agree with you to destroy the value of your DoL. There's no way even the entire server can somehow keep on buying the goods produced by a single level 50 DoL dumping materials and the price will crash to whatever that guy wants it to be. Better you be the guy that causes the crash than the guy that's picking up the pieces after the crash.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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You're buying everything? Butter is a level 7 recipe that makes x6 items, cooking sherry can be obtained 10 for 1-1/2 AK runs or 125 tomes. And worst why are people buying you're food? That is a 2 star food that is worthless stat wise right now since no one has the gear to take advantage of this. Insanity!

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Originally Posted by Kogara

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So you undercut because you farm to fast? Oh the logic in this. Instead of slowing your farming down or holding on to those items a wee bit longer you screw everyone else on your server out of gil because you what, feel like it, you're just that cool? People like you are the ones that make it hard for everyone else to make a profit. You sir are no better then RMT, in fact you are worse, at least they are feeding families with their back handed dealings, you are just doing it cause you are lazy.

I will undercut as much as I like, deal with it. You guys can say im ruining the market or w/e but my pocket disagrees with you. Want to make more money? be more agressive in the market and stop buying mats to flip as its a gamble.

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Originally Posted by Yurikitty

Instead of slowing your farming down or holding on to those items a wee bit longer you screw everyone else on your server out of gil because you what, feel like it, you're just that cool? People like you are the ones that make it hard for everyone else to make a profit.

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Do you really think someone is going to stop how they play a game and think, maybe i should worry about others players ability to make gil? when it has no effect on you at all. I could care less if you have gil or not, Im not selling stuff to be cool. Im making gil, not holding hands and praying we all have equal shares in everything.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

I will undercut as much as I like, deal with it. You guys can say im ruining the market or w/e but my pocket disagrees with you. Want to make more money? be more agressive in the market and stop buying mats to flip as its a gamble.

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You understand if everyone did this like you suggest you would literaly kill the market in less than a week. Honestly did you even think that response through? Oh look you dont like it? Screw you I am undercutting everyone bahahaha... and then everything goes for 100g or less. How long do you think your profits would last then? So happy for you that you're pockets are lined at other peoples expense. Ironically its these jokers that scream and cry the loudest when RMT undercut the hell outta them.

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Originally Posted by Yurikitty

You're buying everything? Butter is a level 7 recipe that makes x6 items, cooking sherry can be obtained 10 for 1-1/2 AK runs or 125 tomes. And worst why are people buying you're food? That is a 2 star food that is worthless stat wise right now since no one has the gear to take advantage of this. Insanity!

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No, That was if I bought everything I wouldn't make any profit since it's barely a 1k per profit at that point, if I don't It's pretty much a 3-4k pure profit and it sells fast. Much like crafted gear, people will buy it even if you can't hit the caps because above all a lot buy 2 star for the vit bonus. Almost no one buys pre-slotted materia gear even if it's the appropriate melds since people rather meld their own onto it (and usually a less effective build.)

You can't hit 2 star cap, but you still gain benefit from it so it still sells.

Here's an illustration of why attempting to rein in undercutting cannot work even if you have the cooperation of an entire server of sellers. Let's say hypothetically Darksteel Ore is 500gil on your server. A guy decided to go rogue and dumps 250 ores at 400 gil each, which can be mined in one day but certainly takes no more than 2 days to go at 25 Darksteel Ore per node. So in order to stop this guy you have to buy all his ores first, at 250X400 = 100K. Now that amount isn't an outrageous amount of money, so you certainly can come up with that kind of money with the cooperation of the server's sellers.

But have you ever looked at how much Darksteel Ores sells in a day? I can almost guaranteed you that your entire server won't sell 100K worth of Darksteel Ore in a given day. The amount of money you got to spend to keep the prices stable is almost certainly more than the entire revenue of the said item in a given day.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

*SNIP*

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Selling responsibly yields more money with less effort for you too.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

...I can almost guaranteed you that your entire server won't sell 100K worth of Darksteel Ore in a given day. The amount of money you got to spend to keep the prices stable is almost certainly more than the entire revenue of the said item in a given day.

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I buy 100k in Darksteel Ore at least 1 day a week for personal use. o.O

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Originally Posted by Yurikitty

You understand if everyone did this like you suggest you would literaly kill the market in less than a week. Honestly did you even think that response through? Oh look you dont like it? Screw you I am undercutting everyone bahahaha... and then everything goes for 100g or less. How long do you think your profits would last then? So happy for you that you're pockets are lined at other peoples expense.

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Yes I did, and what you said HAPPENS if you hadnt noticed, I could be like you guys and cry about it or try something else. Let me give you a tip because you ppl obviously dont get it. supply and demand, if you flood the market and one guy wants to sell 1 thing he will undercut you. By placing all your flipped items up at once you are asking for ppl to undercut you. You seem to be quite the armchair economist. If im doing it wrong why do i have 8 digits? and you are complaining about not being able to make gil lol.

Oh also you cant LITERALLY kill something that is not alive. Check prices, most low mats are bottomed at 1 gil. And selling responsibly? thats a term made up by ppl who cant handle getting undercut. Its fair market not a communist country.

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Originally Posted by Yurikitty

You understand if everyone did this like you suggest you would literaly kill the market in less than a week.

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Your problem is thinking your items actually have value when they do not. When you have infinite supply meeting nonexistent demand, the equilibrium settles at the 'not worth stealing' price. That is, it's equivalent of a price where a pirate is willing to pay for software he could've pirated (likely around $1 or less). And, unlike the real world, you don't get to even try to use stuff like DRM to attempt to put the price back up when you're in FF14. The price simply just crashes.