I disagree, I think you are only using your own anecdotal experience that flies in the face of my own anecdotal experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by zakalw3
There are differences between communities between different games. This is all simple demographics. Certain IPOs attract audiences from different backgrounds and at different ages, this leads to different communities.
Take, for example, when MMORPGs were first a thing (Early MUDs/EQs, up to the very early 2000s, maybe including XI). High speed internet was rarer than it is today, so those early adopters tended to be tabletop afficionados with the disposable income to meet (at the time) quite high PC spec requirements. These generally meant an older demographic with experience at socialising while RP'ing. These tended to be more friendly people (even when they were PK'ing you). Yoshi-P recently described his first experience at getting PK'd in DAOC and how that person took the time to tutor him.
Then enters a game like (for example) Star Wars Galaxies. It shares much the same community as the first generations of MMORPGs (essentially nerds) but with a significant portion of players drawn in by the recent Star Wars prequels who tended to be a lot younger. A lot of guilds introduced minimum ages when recruiting to cut down on smack-talking 13 year olds.
Other games were introduced that catered to different niches (FFXI for nipponophiles, EvE for Iain M. Banks afficionados) and the games' communities tended to reflect the niches they attracted (very polite JP; every party starting with ohayou, many congratulations when people dinged etc in XI. A generally, more sober, mature and ridiculously meta community for Eve).
As WoW brought online MMORPGs into the mainstream (as mainstream as pretending to be an Orc fighting Pandas is ever going to be) and high speed internet becomes almost ubiquitous, more and more people enter the community without any experience of the once-standard MMORPG etiquette, that etiquette starts slipping away. I remember the lols when I said 'ding' once I levelled in GW2 and the confused responses when I congratulated people when they hit a relatively insignificant level.
Then as Guild Wars ushers in the age of F2P MMOs and MMOs start catering to the (now huge) community's demand for games that are easier to pick up and put down (no/little death penalties, automated raid-finding), the genre becomes attractive to those that don't have disposable income for a sub and want more instant gratification. You know; kids and young adults.
This reaches its nadir (hopefully) with LoL. A game which requires no investment to get into, no repercussions for bad/rude behaviour and little to no chance of meeting players you don't like again. This game's community is known far and wide as being incredibly rude and childish.
If I were to sum up my own long, rambling monologue into a tl;dr it would be thus:
tl;dr The wider an audience you aim for as an MMO developer, the more negligable you make the non-raiding experience and the less responsible you make the audience for their actions, the worse a community that will result.
So... make a really niche game for really old people, make it punishing as hell and make it community driven and give it a sub. The result will be a great community (I think I just remade EvE).
THIS I have never told someone that I hope they die. I never saw it or heard from another that they saw it in XI, SWG, UO EvE or X|V version 1. I saw it very occasionally in GW, a bit more in GW2. I see it weekly now in DF and hear from others they see it often too. There has been a change. Believing it isn't so is, in my opinion, being disingenuous at best, willfully ignorant at worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayo
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11-08-2013, 11:52 PMAegis
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11-08-2013, 11:55 PMzakalw3
My behaviour is fine. I can count on one hand the arguments I've had, and they've been petty squabbles about how best to handle a specific run, and none that have ended in name calling or vitriol.
And I've only met a dozen or so outright rude people in game. -
11-09-2013, 12:01 AMzakalw3Your own must be where all the jerks landed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
It's much more likely one of the reasons in the OP, though. -
11-09-2013, 12:54 AMzakalw3
Aegis:
I've been a part of almost all the games you listed, and every time the forums declare "this game's community is worse than x", only for players to jump in game and be met with a majority of pleasant people.
I challenge anyone to record footage of x random games and start conversations to see just how much this is true. Or if you have a character on Lich, join me to test it.
Honestly, there has been no increase in the relative amount of bad eggs.
I guess RNG is RNG. -
11-09-2013, 12:58 AMEbon_Drake
I beg to differ, I'm pretty darn awesome!!
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11-09-2013, 01:14 AMRalemontOh good, so you're only mostly wrong. I'm glad you have bad experiences. You don't deserve good ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairn
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11-09-2013, 01:20 AMArgent_WingsThat's great and all, but I don't think it's wrong to say there's a great difference between communities of different genres EVEN if there are people, like myself, who play all of them. Competition is no excuse for someone to turn into a jerk in LoL or Dota when they wouldn't be in ARR or CoD. No one is saying people don't have bad days or for whatever reason are just in one of those moods. The problem is that acting a certain way in said games becomes socially acceptable because no one even tries to do it differently. Either that or they're in the minority or simply don't feel like they should have to. A gaming community doesn't have to turn into Gotham City.Quote:
Originally Posted by zakalw3
People develop this dog eat dog mentality where they feel the only way to survive in a world of jerks is to become one themselves. Being a flawed human being is never an excuse not to show decency to your fellow man. I don't even know why this is debatable. -
11-09-2013, 01:22 AMzakalw3
Yes Agent, that's great, but I can guarantee you if we jumped in game together now the majority of players we interacted with would be pleasant.
Which is the point. -
11-09-2013, 01:29 AMKayoWhy? Because he said the truth? Id completely check off english servers in DF if I knew how to speak/type in Japanese. Unfortunately I cant type anything and only know some basic "tourist survival" Japanese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralemont
You can get all "youre a filthy racist" if it makes you feel better but the fact remains Eastern cultures (particularly the Japanese) are raised to be more part of a community than the western who are raised to look out for #1 and only really care about each other when tragedy strikes. -
11-09-2013, 01:49 AMRalemontI don't think he's a racist, not the least of which because "English speaker" isn't a race. I just think he's an uneducated moron. Not that the two are mutually exclusive by any means. But anyone who writes off interacting with English speakers as "disgusting" deserves what he gets from those people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayo
I wonder how much time you've actually spent in Eastern culture, or how much you've studied them. "Eastern cultures are more polite" is a gross generalization and doesn't actually reflect opinions towards different groups of people. People love anecdotal stories without actually bothering to do research. I had a woman in Japan come up to me and insult and belittle me for being American and was very surprised when I responded in perfect Japanese. OMG JAPANESE WOMEN ARE THE WORST.
Since you only know tourist Japanese, it's unlikely you'd even know when Japanese parties were making fun of you, since typically Japanese players make fun of foreigners to each other instead of, say, insulting you in auto-translate. Not that this is at all typical Japanese player behavior, just that when someone decides to be rude, it's less likely you'd know about it.
With all that being said, I have no problem with people saying that in general Japanese players tend to be more polite towards each other than American parties. It's self-aware of its anecdotal nature and I have no real hard data to prove one way or another. But it's at least trying to be analytical instead of downright insulting, and someone asterisking "most not all!" after a claim that a group of people is disgusting is a misguided attempt to seem nuanced and objective.
And just as long as we're being anecdotal, I've probably used DF over 60 times by now including Ifrit, and run into exactly one rude player. Perhaps I'm lucky, perhaps you're not. We won't figure it out just by people relating stories. -
11-09-2013, 01:52 AMDwightParkman
No Op.
This community is alot worse then most mmos.
FFXI's community aswell as EVE have very good communities, because they are good games, unlike this one, because all this game is , is a WoWclone with a final fantasy skin slapped on. -
11-09-2013, 01:54 AMPhoggWhat an absolute load of BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayo
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11-09-2013, 01:58 AMTeriusIgnorance must be bliss. "Games I liked had great communties!"Quote:
Originally Posted by DwightParkman
Moving on, I do so enjoy the, "JP players/community are better in every way!" comments.
Why? "Because I watch anime and <3 JP culture even though I actually know nothing about them." -
11-09-2013, 02:05 AMYunieAuraB-B-B-But I watched Cowboy Bebop and hang katanas on my wall!Quote:
Originally Posted by Terius
Not really, but *finally* someone said it. D: *shares popcorn* -
11-09-2013, 02:08 AMDwightParkmanthats not very fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terius
i liked those games BECAUSE they had good gameplay and good communites. typical blind ff14 fanboy always going for the defensive rage arguments!!! -
11-09-2013, 02:11 AMTeriusFF14 Fanboy? I'm well aware of this games flaws sir, infact I dont hold it very high currently with my monday nights being the only thing to login for.Quote:
Originally Posted by DwightParkman
WoW had the same community as any other MMO. The huge number of players simply meant a larger proportion of sillybeans.
Nice try though, but the poorly thought out and overused, 'typical fanboy' defense did not work out for you this time around. -
11-09-2013, 02:19 AMDivinemightUnfortunately, JP online gaming community is far better due to their distinct culture. Typical example, during JP latest earthquake, there is no looter nor robbery. Japanse still leave money to store's counter after they took something they need even store is already deserted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terius
Do I have to remind you what has happened to US's last natural disaster in New Orlean? Mass looters. I am not worshiping Japanse by any mean, but their society structure is more discpline than rest of the world. -
11-09-2013, 02:21 AMSynMarisFinally! Someone calls out the Weeabos and the "Kawaii" Crowd. <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Terius
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11-09-2013, 02:22 AMRalemontFacts must be inconvenient for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinbe...-in-japan.html
The media also conveniently called it "looting" when black people did it, but "scavenging" when white people did. In either case, the government couldn't get this business together and NO residents were left to fend for themselves. Police committed daily brutality. Why the hell should someone care about taking food from a grocery store they didn't pay for when everyone's home is underwater and no help is coming? -
11-09-2013, 02:23 AMDoctorPepper
I agree with the OP 100%. To claim that this game is worse than any others out there is ridiculous. Just because you found a group of friends easier in one game and had a couple bad experiences with some people doesn't make this game a bad one. I've met a ton of awesome people already and have chose to simply ignore the bad ones.
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11-09-2013, 02:24 AMDivinemightMight as well spill it out for me, i am not clicking unknown url.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralemont
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11-09-2013, 02:24 AMArgent_WingsWhy do people keep neglecting to mention how much higher the suicide rate in Japan is? As I recall, it's almost twice what it is in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
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11-09-2013, 02:25 AMAerosteinTo be fair, I think what he said was pretty much spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phogg
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11-09-2013, 02:25 AMDivinemightI dont think I cares about their social issue, but for a gaming community wise, current FF14 English community is much worst than old FF11 English community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent_Wings
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11-09-2013, 02:26 AMArgent_WingsThen why did you make the Earthquake/New Orleans comparison? That says nothing about their gaming community. If the internet teaches you anything, it should be that how we act in public doesn't always translate to how we act in gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
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11-09-2013, 02:30 AMRalemontIt's the Chicago Sun Times, but here you go anyway:Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
"From a website of Kyodo News, Japan’s version of CNN, headlined, in Japanese:
“In Miyagi, police report 40 robberies by those taking advantage of the earthquake.”
The text, translated, reads:
“According to police on the night of the 13th the morning of the 14, approximately 1 million yen in cash was taken from the Miyagi City Home Center. There were robberies at a convenience store and a food store, and robberies at approximately 40 other stores by those taking advantage of the earthquake amounting to 1.65 million yen.”
A City Home Center is a store like a Target. And, at 80 yen to the dollar, the loss isn’t great — $12,500 in cash; $20,000 in theft. In this one report. But here was some looting, and there is no reason to think there wasn’t a lot more."
And just to be consistent with my opinion on Katrina above, I have no problem with looting grocery stores for food. Take care of your survival first.
Clearly you do care about social issues as long as it portrays Japanese well and Americans badly. You should put down the shovel now, that hole is deep enough I think.Quote:
I dont think I cares about their social issue, but for a gaming community wise, current FF14 English community is much worst than old FF11 English community.
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11-09-2013, 02:38 AMPhoggThe suggestion that western culture in times of crisis only looks out for themselves and does not come together with aid for either domestic or international crises is factually inaccurate. So no, it is not spot on. Japan is one of the largest donors of international humanitarian aid. Know who the other two are? Oh yeah the United States and Britain. Nonsense is nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerostein
Some people would like to say hello:
Peace Corp
Army Corp of Engineers
The Red Cross and all the donors who support them
Doctors without borders
Dentists without borders
Borderline rampant university's international excternships
Firefighters and Doctors who live everyday on call in the event of a tragedy and willing to leave their families on a moments notice to offer assistance......
Fas.org
Sure, the Japanese have a very tight nit community, one that is borderline racist and exclusionary to outsiders in some cases. To their credit, this has vastly improved over the last few decades. But the point remains the picture painted by the person I responded to is false on many levels, and shamefully so. -
11-09-2013, 02:39 AMDoctorPepperI played FFXI for 7 years and I saw the exact same kinds of community issues there.. you must not have been doing endgame or something. Maybe you're talking about the FFXIV forum community?Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
I've made lots of great friends in FFXIV, just because you're incapable or have had bad luck doing so doesn't make the community bad or worse than FFXI. Get back up on that horse and try to make some good friends, simple. If you played FFXI then you should know that you'll only have a good experience when you find a good team to play with. -
11-09-2013, 02:44 AMOrsnoireNostalgia will do that for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by DenzelTaru
And that's not meant as a derogatory criticism. 5 years of intervening memories is an AWFULLY long time to try and preserve a clear memory when you haven't had consistent refreshers along the way. -
11-09-2013, 02:47 AMXystic
We need to remember that WoW copied many of its MMO styles from previous MMOs, All it did was gather a bunch of the good points from all the other MMOs at the current time and combined them to form WoW.
Also, another poster stated that the JP community runs better then the english community, and that is very true. The JP community continues to play MMOs the same way they have been since the beginning of MMOs. They interact with each other and work together as a community to progress forward. They play the game for what it offers, not for what they can make it offer. -
11-09-2013, 02:53 AMDivinemightI played FFXI until end of Seekers of Adoulin. I have done FF11 game and even participated in Ballista Royale. I thank you for your caring but I do have friends to play with, but nevertheless it doesn't change the issue that there is something wrong with current FF14 gaming community. I am not complaining about fourm community, because it is same everywhere at global scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorPepper
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11-09-2013, 02:59 AMzakalw3Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorPepper
Again, the challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
Jump into x dungeons and start conversations with random players.
I can guarantee you the majority will be polite and decent. -
11-09-2013, 03:06 AMDivinemightDoes this include those players who failed once on Garuda, but not willing to try again. Dont want to take 15 min penalty and decides to take off gear and keep pulling Garuda until someone gives up and take the 15 min penalty? Is there a english term for polite asshat?Quote:
Originally Posted by zakalw3
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11-09-2013, 03:08 AMTeganLaronI had the exact same thing on Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
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11-09-2013, 03:09 AMRaminax
Some light reading for all the japanophiles. Particularly point number 2. The outright bigotry in this thread sickens me. <_<
Personally, I've yet to have overwhelmingly negative experiences. Sure, I've had, like, 3 DPS/Healers scream that the tank is retarded if Aiatar isn't going smoothly or the Bard is a strumpet if they aren't singing Mage's Ballad for Holy spam, but other than that, people are at the very least polite and civil. I always throw a friendly greeting when a dungeon starts and in 99% of the cases the other three reply in kind. I happily give instructions on how to best tackle a boss if required, and if everything goes all right, I'll happily thank the group for playing. And even if we end up wiping a bunch, I'll just make a slightly snarky remark at worst... which people rarely get bitter about and we just laugh before we part ways.
I mean, am I just lucky, or are there a lot of people who refuse to admit they might be part of the problem? :p -
11-09-2013, 03:32 AMzakalw3"Those players" being in the extreme minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
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11-09-2013, 03:41 AMAerosteinThat's all well and good, except he wasn't saying that at all. At least, not to the extreme as you seemed to interpret it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phogg
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11-09-2013, 03:42 AMCeol49% is still a lot of assholes.Quote:
Originally Posted by zakalw3
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11-09-2013, 03:50 AMRoboviking
While mostly true, the way the game is designed doesn't help the situation. When you are required to run the same two dungeons hundreds of times, and encounters like HM titan require perfect sync with strangers, the tolerance for mistakes and anything that might slow a group down run very thin. Even the nicest players at some point may snap when you need that last run of a dungeon you've done 50 times and for whatever reason it's taking twice as long as usual.
I'm not giving jerks a free pass, just saying the reason people may feel this game's community is harsher than others might be due to it's grind-y nature. -
11-09-2013, 04:06 AMArale
The community is not fine, and the reason is because the game fosters a lot of bad behavior due to how things work or are 'achieved'. INB4 every game has xyz. Yes, it's true, every game has grind and repetitive content. In my experiences though with at least a dozen MMO's, the manner in which you did these activities is what dictated how players participated in said activities. If it's not fun, takes awhile, and barely dents the goal you are going towards, people will rush, bitch, complain and just in general be very unpleasant to be with if their goal is to get it over and done as soon as possible. Because it's not fun, it's not engaging. That's the biggest problem with this game for me. Aside from gathering/crafting, there's really nothing else that draws me in as far as progression content goes. Everythings so easy or handed to players that they get the mindset that it should always be this way, or it should always go smoothly. This is why people act the way they do in my opinion. It's not the whole reason, but currently the game does not foster a cooperative, engaging experience between players most of the time. If it did, I feel we would have a much more cooperative and nurturing community.