Dear DPS.

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

Dear Tank,

Nonsense.
1) Blah
2) Blah
3) Blah

Sincerely,
DPS who is awesome.

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We already need to keep the healers from pulling hate... Having an uber-awesome monk around that can't just focus is like having a black mage that only spams aoes...

You pull it and it doesn't say "1", you're tanking it, buddy.

I kind of only started this to vent because i was really annoyed by one specific instance of something.

but just have to chime in on the monk thing. No, you are not making it easier, you are making it harder by forcing the tank to either spam AoE threat(which is weaker, generation speed wise), or to constantly switch targets(which is slower, focus fire DPS wise). the reason you pull off of tanks is because you go balls out full throttle from the tomahawk/shield lob. any sensible DPS knows to wait a moment for threat to be established. Or you've gotten terrible tanks, or your dots have pulled something(my main DPS classes are SMN and MNK, DoTs pull way more hate than you think, they just do it slowly.)

I wait a few seconds for the tank to establish threat. If I wail on just the marked target I'll start pulling aggro off of the tank (a lot of people don't seem to realize there's an aggro meter to the left of the screen). In order to allow the tank to keep their threat, if i spread DoTs I can ensure that instead of putting hard aggro on one thing i can instead have small aggro spread out so I won't get aggro and the tank can keep their aggro on everything. plus the overall dps will be greater for faster dungeon runs.
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However just to note, I don't completely ignore the kill target. i'll put dots on that one first and will use my first two combo abilities on it to get demolish (dot) ready for another target. and if a target is literally almost dead I'll go ahead and just finish it off. If it's an add that's a healer or something of course ill take it down first, but for normal trash with nothing really special, I'll do the above statement.

again, that's a terrible tank. a real tank with a level appropriate weapon using their stance(defiance, shield oath) will not lose single target to anything else, short of another tank. they have high potency and enmity modifiers(5x on second hit, and 10x on third hit in stance) on their combos.

lets say that 1 damage equals 1 enmity.
you get 3 hits at 140, 150, and 170.
they get 3 hits at 150, 250, and 300.
so, you've generated ~460 enmity(140+150+170 give or take auto attacks and dot ticks.)
they've generated ~4400(150+(250x5) + (300x10)).

if they keep hitting that target with that combo, you will literally never pull threat unless they're dead/incapacitated/went AFK for 30 full seconds, you hit something you weren't supposed to, or random boss threat shift(which I'm not even sure is a thing right now).

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Originally Posted by kasuke06

again, that's a terrible tank. a real tank with a level appropriate weapon using their stance(defiance, shield oath) will not lose single target to anything else, short of another tank.

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Or, y'know, I blow all my cooldowns except for Quelling as he pulls. Not too much he could do about that.

1 dmg = 1 enmity
if an attack misses you get .5 enmity, if an attack crits you get 1.1 enmity (monks like crit btw)

Don't know why your example shows a tank pulling higher DPS than an actual DPS, that's funny.
the multipliers are based off if a tank uses specific abilities (savage blade, rage of halone, shield lob, shield oath, overpower, defiance, skullsunder, butchers block, tomohawk) and those abilities get the multiplier between 2x-5x don't see where you got 10x from.

Yes it is very possible for a DPS to pull aggro away from a tank, i see all the time.
Heck, I've even seen healers pull aggro from tanks and they only generate .5 enmity per heal.

tanks have significantly higher potency. I was stating as though both start at 100. therefore their potency is their damage.

Stances(shield oath and defiance) generate no threat on their own, they double the current multiplier of the attack.

I'll be a little more realistic this time and include the damage reduction from stances.
112.5(heavy swing no multiplier)
187.5(skull sunder x2 standard)
225(butcher's block x5 standard)
leading to 3112.5 threat generated(112.5 + 187.5x4 225x10)
the last combo I linked(this without the stances weakening effect and multipliers from stances) would come out to 2150 without stances, or buffs.

tanks have extremely high potency attacks, but few if any ways to employ them quickly like DPS(BRD can use off gcd attacks to fill black spots where a tank has to wait for a gcd to go through, before using anything other than a buff. MNK get a speed bonus from GL stacks, dragoons... they kind of play like tanks without the enmity bonuses.)

EDIT: Derped on the combo from the first example bit.

This is getting intresting...

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

People routinely ignore my marks. I just put them up so I can justifiably ignore them when they pull hate.

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So does that mean your not gonna save a little ole blm doing AOE also or am I good if we play? Because if your not holding Aggro on them all them and only the one then we got problems. :) yeah yeah wait for tank to get Aggro etc...then AOE. Make sure your generating your Aggro to the other mobs.

Don't be the warrior that request sleep on sleep resistant mobs because he does not want to tank more than 1 target at a time lol.

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Originally Posted by kasuke06

tanks have significantly higher potency. I was stating as though both start at 100. therefore their potency is their damage.

Stances(shield oath and defiance) generate no threat on their own, they double the current multiplier of the attack.

I'll be a little more realistic this time and include the damage reduction from stances.
112.5(heavy swing no multiplier)
187.5(skull sunder x2 standard)
225(butcher's block x5 standard)
leading to 3112.5 threat generated(112.5 + 187.5x4 225x10)
the last combo I linked(this without the stances weakening effect and multipliers from stances) would come out to 2150 without stances, or buffs.

tanks have extremely high potency attacks, but few if any ways to employ them quickly like DPS(BRD can use off gcd attacks to fill black spots where a tank has to wait for a gcd to go through, before using anything other than a buff. MNK get a speed bonus from GL stacks, dragoons... they kind of play like tanks without the enmity bonuses.)

EDIT: Derped on the combo from the first example bit.

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I know that Tanks are obviously supposed to generate the most threat because that's part of their role, I'm not hear to debate whether or not they do, they obviously do.

The point I was trying to make is that despite this, there are still times a DPS can generate enough aggro to pull off from a tank. Unlike most dps I pay attention to my threat meters to make sure I don't cause too much threat which can happen from time to time. I was just explaining there are two good reasons why a dps might attack multiple things instead of one. spreading aggro is one obviously, the other is that you can do more dps and make the dungeon go faster, pretty sure people like faster dungeon runs. If however a dps isn't attacking multiple things and is only attacking one thing AND that one enemy isn't the marked target then that definitely is a problem because they aren't doing anything positive.

I just do this for trash mobs, obviously adds in a boss mechanic is whole 'nother story.

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Originally Posted by kasuke06

If I mark something, like say the doctore in halitali who knocks off 10% of my health a swing(and that was on a block!). it means kill him first. not second, not third, not change the mark to the stupid imps because you can kill them faster than him. they do negligible damage, to the point where its smarter to ignore them until the end of the fight(excepting AoE threat generator use of course).

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Casters > Ranged > Melee
That's been the kill order I'm used to in every MMO. That Doctore may hit like a freight train when it connects compared to the imps, but the imps die fast and the consistent casting damage you take while killing the Doctore adds up fast. You take out weaker targets first to reduce whatever incoming damage you take during the course of the fight because most of the TP abilities that hit hard on that Doctore are avoidable. Spells are not.

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Originally Posted by kasuke06

again, that's a terrible tank. a real tank with a level appropriate weapon using their stance(defiance, shield oath) will not lose single target to anything else, short of another tank. they have high potency and enmity modifiers(5x on second hit, and 10x on third hit in stance) on their combos.

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Self-control is not a strong suit for a DPS. Especially when gear disparity comes into play. A skilled newly level 50 tank will not be able to hold threat on a fully geared DPS in Darklight or better with a relic weapon. It's just not happening. I've tanked a run or two where an overgeared BLM in the group got pissed because nothing I did could hold hate off of him after an Astral Fire rotation. He just started using Blizzard I the entire run and was VERY vocal about how much he hated that I was "awful" and couldn't hold hate off of his Relic+1 BLM in full Darklight with a few AF2 pieces. Similarly geared tanks and DPS shouldn't have too many issues, but once a DPS starts to outgear the tank then all bets are off.

but those imps don't cast crap. they just melee for less than the doctore, at the same-ish speed. there is nothing special about them at all.

Guess all the DPS should try being tanks and healers some time, eh? Especially with the armory system in place.

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Originally Posted by kasuke06

but those imps don't cast crap. they just melee for less than the doctore, at the same-ish speed. there is nothing special about them at all.

Guess all the DPS should try being tanks and healers some time, eh? Especially with the armory system in place.

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I've tanked a bit in WoW, and mained as a healer in WoW while being in off dps.
i plan on leveling a warrior tank once i get blood for blood.

They still die fast because they tend to have lower health, and dead enemies don't cast/attack at all. It's better in the long run to take out weak, squishy enemies first and focus down the big target last. Same on bosses: you take out the weaker adds then return to the boss because they die fast and things get more complicated than they need to if left alive. Also you can parry, block, and dodge the melee attacks of the Doctore (especially their TP moves with the LARGE red cone you run out of). Spells just hit for slightly reduced damage if resisted, but they will connect. Casters and ranged at higher levels tend to suck if left uncontrolled which is why they should be the primary target most of the time.

spike damage=bad, kill the thing that causes the spike damage=good. I can tank the imps all day, the doctore meanwhile punches some fairly sizeable dents into my armor. also, I just stun the big bastard when he's winding up.

and again, this was halitali the place with exactly 4 caster type mobs, in order of encounter: bombs(7 total, might be adding/forgetting one), firemane(1st boss), lightning sprites(anywhere between 0 and 15 depending on luck), and fire sprites(final boss room, spawns 2 per add phase, seems that killing them is what triggers the switch back to normal fighting.)

and yes, it does sometimes make sense to kill the weaker things first. but the more time you spend killing them the longer the big thing lives that's really causing the damage. and early on, there isn't much separating everyone in terms of health, so big spiky damage can kill your tank if you aren't paying attention/standing there throwing rocks in cleric stance and spamming medica for your main tank heal.

I get the "fun" groups. I think I may have set puppies on fire and hurled them at girl scouts in a past life or something. because it's every single time when I'm tanking or healing.

When I DPS? the tank and healer are over-geared(relics in brayflox anyone?) and know exactly how to run each pull and boss.
When I tank? I'm the only one who's been there before, the DPS forgot how to count, and the healer pulls the boss while I'm explaining mechanics. Good thing I like playing WAR, because I'm always infuriated.

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Originally Posted by kasuke06

spike damage=bad, kill the thing that causes the spike damage=good. I can tank the imps all day, the doctore meanwhile punches some fairly sizeable dents into my armor. also, I just stun the big bastard when he's winding up.

and again, this was halitali the place with exactly 4 caster type mobs, in order of encounter: bombs(7 total, might be adding/forgetting one), firemane(1st boss), lightning sprites(anywhere between 0 and 15 depending on luck), and fire sprites(final boss room, spawns 2 per add phase, seems that killing them is what triggers the switch back to normal fighting.)

and yes, it does sometimes make sense to kill the weaker things first. but the more time you spend killing them the longer the big thing lives that's really causing the damage. and early on, there isn't much separating everyone in terms of health, so big spiky damage can kill your tank if you aren't paying attention/standing there throwing rocks in cleric stance and spamming medica for your main tank heal.

I get the "fun" groups. I think I may have set puppies on fire and hurled them at girl scouts in a past life or something. because it's every single time when I'm tanking or healing.

When I DPS? the tank and healer are over-geared(relics in brayflox anyone?) and know exactly how to run each pull and boss.
When I tank? I'm the only one who's been there before, the DPS forgot how to count, and the healer pulls the boss while I'm explaining mechanics. Good thing I like playing WAR, because I'm always infuriated.

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The spike damage is still avoidable, particularly if you stun the buff they put on themselves. Their melee attacks are slower, so they do hit harder than other mobs (which is pretty standard for every MMO). While you can tank the imps "all day long" and focus the Doctore first, all you're doing is running the risk that your healer takes aggro while healing unnecessary damage from adds. Halatali is still a fairly lower dungeon, so it's not critical. But at higher levels in other MMOs I've played you still took out casters (healers in particular), then ranged, then melee. This game still suffers from WoW transfer issues where below a certain level every DPS assumes you just AoE every pile of stuff until it's all dead. I give the DPS one warning on AoEs in lower dungeons, then if they insist on it after that I stop trying to pull it off of them (killed a lot of idiot Archers in Copperbell from that). At level 50 I tend to lose threat occasionally just because I'm not highly geared and DPS don't have a throttle below "Kill it yesterday!" on their damage output.