WARNING: DO NOT add a kick / boot feature.

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Originally Posted by TheRealist

I hope they do not implement a kick feature. Could you imagine a PS3 player getting his first slow run on Prae or CM getting booted by PC speed runners because it takes an extra 8 seconds for them to load after cut scenes. They really need an AFK timer or some level of minimum participation to get credit for tomes.

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You already see the shouts in RT for runs that state "NO PS3 Users".

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Originally Posted by Kort

People used to run AK "under geared" all the time. Then they found out how to speed run things and now these people are too good to run it the way it was supposed to be run. It wouldn't drop the next level gear if SE didn't intend on it being ran when that gear was needed.

This wasn't a rant at YOU. Just a rant in your post. sorry

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But I agree with you. The most realistic option is a higher level Philo dungeon that drops more tomes. Most under gear wipes are due to insane aggro drawn from high geared players. The problem is both parties need this dungeon, I was presenting her with a solution she may prefer as that would be far better then a kick system because the environment around speed run dungeons is half nice people trying grind up, and half extremely toxic opportunists. The later half is a big issue. That said, the video attached is proof. I also think though there needs to be gear too high and gear too low restrictions. Because a level 30 sword is pushing it hard.

http://youtu.be/U9qLEHSLu8M

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

A vote-kick will require all 3 other members in a 4 man, and probably at least 5 in an 8 man party. There's nothing wrong with that. The damage done by trolls and afkers is far worse than not having vote-kick.

Simple solution if you don't want to be afraid of being kicked: Don't go into something undergeared unless you're doing so with friends. Though this won't be a problem when they add gear requirements in 2.1 (thank goodness).

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Your saying that the whole community has to meet your standards to use a PUBLIC duty finder. Shouldnt it be the other way around? If you dont like a PUBLIC service then dont use it and you shouldnt have the power to kick people from a PUBLIC service so you can have higher standards of use for it.

your also telling people if you dont want a bad experience of someone booting you for reasons other then being AFK or Badmouthing, you shouldnt use the PUBLIC duty finder... I'm at a loss of words.

Guess it all comes down to what your definition of undergeared is also, alot of people who will boot you would think full darklight on an AK or CM run should be the standard. What of those people and the amount of kicking they would do compared to your 1% encounters with afk'rs or badmouthers?

Just the other day I heard shouts for CM speed runs, must have full darklight and relics... I have no doubt these people would kick any duty finder player who was unfortunate enough to enter thier party and does not meet thier outragiously rediculous standards.

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Originally Posted by Farmer

Your saying that the whole community has to meet your standards to use a PUBLIC duty finder. Shouldnt it be the other way around? If you dont like a PUBLIC service then dont use it and you shouldnt have the power to kick people from a PUBLIC service so you can have higher standards of use for it.

your also telling people if you dont want a bad experience of someone booting you for reasons other then being AFK or Badmouthing, you shouldnt use the PUBLIC duty finder... I'm at a loss of words.

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Huh? I think you're confused.

I'm saying that the community should meet the standards of the majority of the party. Did you miss the word "vote" in vote kick? In a party of 4, if 3 people agree that one person is not pulling their weight in some way (undergeared, unwilling to learn mechanics, AFK, bad behavior, etc) then it's perfectly reasonable to kick them. And it will add a degree of accountability that insofar has been lacking in the DF.

And no, I didn't say don't use the DF... I said make sure you aren't undergeared unless completing it with friends who are willing to carry you.

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Originally Posted by Rsthaliot

http://youtu.be/U9qLEHSLu8M

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This video is a bad example. I saw in the video the BLM had a relic, WHM had ifrits cane, and the WAR had a relic plus all DL accessories. Trade those weapons and accessories for ilvl 40ish weapons and I bet that run wouldn't have went so well.

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Originally Posted by Farmer

Just the other day I heard shouts for CM speed runs, must have full darklight and relics... I have no doubt these people would kick any duty finder player who was unfortunate enough to enter thier party and does not meet thier outragiously rediculous standards.

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Their standards may seem ridiculous to you but that is probably why they were forming a premade party instead of using the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Huh? I think you're confused.

I'm saying that the community should meet the standards of the majority of the party. Did you miss the word "vote" in vote kick? In a party of 4, if 3 people agree that one person is not pulling their weight in some way (undergeared, unwilling to learn mechanics, AFK, bad behavior, etc) then it's perfectly reasonable to kick them. And it will add a degree of accountability that insofar has been lacking in the DF.

And no, I didn't say don't use the DF... I said make sure you aren't undergeared unless completing it with friends who are willing to carry you.

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Just because its a vote doesnt mean its going to be the right vote.

I guess the question is, should SE be setting the standard of a dungeon they created, or should players of a party using a PUBLIC duty finder service be able to do set that standard by giving anyone below an unknown standard set by party members a vote to be kicked?

My opinion is that SE should set the standard for dungeons and not players. if players want to set a standard they can do it in a private setting and not in a PUBLIC setting (duty finder) that creates a bad exeperience for players who do not meet that unknown standard by having to be kicked by a party after waiting 45 mins to join that party.

Again, the ONLY time someone should be booted or kicked from a Public party is due to being AFK or bad mouthing other players, anything beyond that and it doesnt become a democracy, but a tool to crush the minority players who are doing nothing wrong.

It is quite clear that people would use a system thats intended for afk and bad mouth behaviour to be used to set the standard of gear for a dungeon, which should be SE who sets that standard... this couldnt be a better example of why its bad to put in a kick / boot system.

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Originally Posted by Valarice

Today I has a blm who queued up into praetorium and sat at the entrance the whole time. He was not afk, he just refused to participate. He was there from first boss to the end. We had no way to remove him and we had to 7 man the dungeon as a result. We need SOME kind of power to deal with these jerks.

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I only wish our BLM experience today in CM was as good as afk. Ours alternated between sitting down as we fought and actively going out of his way to mess up our fights by aggroing mobs we could bypass or pulling in extra adds we didn't need. He obviously soon ceased getting heals, but after sulking a while at the entrance after dying he, alas, kept coming back.

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Originally Posted by Farmer

I guess the question is, should SE be setting the standard of a dungeon they created, or should players of a party using a PUBLIC duty finder service be able to do set that standard by giving anyone below an unknown standard set by party members?

My opinion is that SE should set the standard for dungeons and not players. if players want to set a standard they can do it in a private setting and not in a PUBLIC setting that creates a bad exeperience for players who do not meet that unknown standard.

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2.1 will be adding a gear check to DF so you can't enter dungeons undergeared, so there's your "SE setting the standards" right there.

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Again, the ONLY time someone should be booted or kicked from a Public party is due to being AFK or bad mouthing other players, anything beyond that and it doesnt become a democracy, but a tool to crush the minority players who are doing nothing wrong.

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This is simply untrue. There are MANY times where the reason people are failing is either due to someone unwilling or unable to grasp the mechanics of the fight, or are simply too far undergeared to complete it. A perfect example was last night running AK. Three of us had sufficient gear for the dungeon, one was a fresh 50 with AF and a 44 weapon. We taught him as best we could as we went and were quite patient with him on the Demon Wall. We attempted it at least 6-7 times before it was determined that he was just dying too much. So we politely asked him to leave. Luckily, he did (though this was all in Japanese... I doubt your average NA player would have been so understanding). We opened up the finder to find a replacement. The replacement was properly geared but was running it for the first time. We talked him through it and managed to finish the dungeon.

Two issues people keep using as a reason for a kick boot system seem to be the bad mouthing and afk, but also would use it for gear standards.

We want to get rid of afk'rs, and badmouthers, but not be falsley removed from a party... So we should come up with genius fixes that do what we want but never give players the option to kick or boot players which should only be in the hands of SE. Below is three ways I would accomplish this goal and prevent abuse of a system that boots and kicks people maliciously.

1. I think SE should have a option to report badmouthing by having one player report another for bad mouthing, and if that player uses a cencored ???? laungage again, it automaticly boots that person.

2. I think for afk players, if a player is reported, they should get a countdown to move and take action within 5 mins of being reported or be removed from dungeon.

3. Add a dungeon gear level minimum to dungeons, that would make the minimum gear it would take for the worst geared person to finish the dungeon. A level that SE feels is fair and reasonable to low gear lvl first time players who are running that dungeon for the first time.

It's happening slowly but surely people are seeing why the Duty finder is a terrible system to try and control. There is no way for the players themselves to police themselves or hold people accountable. Square Enix then needs to resort to holding our hands to telling us all to "Get along" in a futile attempt at controling the rampant vitrol that comes with annonimity and lack of recourse.

Slowly but surely people will turn away from the Duty Finder and hopefully there will be a day when we all can sit around and say "Remember when we thought that was a good idea? Lol"

@Farmer

These reasons are way easy on trolls and jerks out there. 5 mins? why so long? if the party kicks for afk there is a reason, they are afk, 5 mins is plenty of time to move a second and go back to watching tv. Should be 30 seconds at most. A group of people won't vote to kick someone who says "afk a min" I never see anyone complain when someone says something similar. The badmouthing option won't help anyone either can't be kicked for language since a filter is in place. Nothing wrong with an entire party voting to kick someone, and if party is full of players that like to grief single people and kick for no reason? sorry I just don't see it. Kicks would be used when justified. And as long as there is a ilvl req. no kicking due to low gear will exist anymore.

Unless they put in that you can only kick some many times per run, like a light party can only vote to kick once in a run, maybe a full party can vote to kick 3 times a run, or keep count how many times a player vote to kick a day

Considering they are adding a item level restriction system to dungeons, the concept of what is considered 'under-geared' will change. Since if the game allows those people in the dungeon, then SE believes they have every right to be there in order for it to be successful and the players have one less leg to stand on. Sure they'll be people who expect you to be in full ilevel 70 gear +relic to do AK/CM, but it's their fault for using Duty Finder with those unreasonable expectations and if they come in to be a jerk about it they'll be subject to the same kick system as the players they despise.

Suffice to say, the pros will outweigh the cons. As long as SE does the math and knows precisely what gear is required for each dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Slowly but surely people will turn away from the Duty Finder and hopefully there will be a day when we all can sit around and say "Remember when we thought that was a good idea? Lol"

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Having been through the various kinds of idiocy in FFXI for so many years ("Arrowburn/Manaburn/TPBurn only", "lol[insert misunderstood job here]", "R/M/E/D weapon only", among other messed up standards fed to wannabe elitists by BG), I will stand by the Duty Finder system. The flaws can be addressed as time goes on.

The case against the vote-kick system seems sound, but I'd like to see something that holds people accountable for actions that have negative effects on the party.

I hate to say this, but it really a catch 22.
However, I'm all for some kind of system that removes people from AFKing/Leeching in a group and here is why:
Last night during an AK run I had a tank who got mad because we wipe on the last trash pull before the last boss. He got mad and while skipping the giants on the way up, he forced me, the brd, and blm in to cs and got us aggo and killed as he stood there and watched us die from coming out of the cs and then went AFK at the end boss and grief the party until finally the brd left and the blm left unhappy that he couldn't move forward in his relic quest. Of course I reported it, but we all know how SE takes action on this kinda stuff....people most likely don't even get a 2 day ban for it. Nobody scared and they know they can get away with it.

Today during a CM run: Get to the last boss again and the OT says, "I'm going to get food, you got this MT?" and then goes AFK during the last boss fight and of course we couldn't get him killed because he stayed in the CS the whole time. He pretty much leeched the 100 tomes as the rest of the run he wouldn't even pick up adds off the DD and healers.

Something needs to be done and this whole MVP system that SE doing not going to fix a damn thing. There will be people out there that won't care one bit if they are getting voted up or not. They will still AFK/Leech during a run or just be down right @(#)#( to screw people over.
If not a vote kick, then what? How and when is this crap going to stop? If it doesn't soon the game going to become not so enjoyable and people are going to quit playing and then more whining will start because DF will be even worse for finding tanks and healers.
I as a healer have personally started doing my own LS/FC runs now that there enough 50's. I've gotten sick of this behavior from other players and I'm not all for getting freeloaders free loot/tomes.

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Originally Posted by AAAFate

@Farmer

These reasons are way easy on trolls and jerks out there. 5 mins? why so long? if the party kicks for afk there is a reason, they are afk, 5 mins is plenty of time to move a second and go back to watching tv. Should be 30 seconds at most. A group ofpeople won't vote to kick someone who says "afk a min" I never see anyone complain when someone says something similar. The badmouthing option won't help anyone either can't be kicked for language since a filter is in place. Nothing wrong with an entire party voting to kick someone, and if party is full of players that like to grief single people and kick for no reason? sorry I just don't see it. Kicks would be used when justified. And as long as there is a ilvl req. no kicking due to low gear will exist anymore.

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And if im in a CM, and right after a trash pack, i announce i need to go to the toilet. Takes me about 30 seconds to TO the toilet in my house, let alone do whats needed and get back. And the people who live in multi story houses? And what about people who ask for a minute to answer the phone?

Every system can and will be abused. Vote kicks can be abused. AFK checks can be abused.
Gear boots cant happen because we get ilvl reqs on DF queues at the same time. We cant have undergeared players in DF runs after that.
There are systems they can put in to stop most unrequired boots.
For example, when kicking, have a box open with options containing legit reasons for a kick. Harrassment and long AFKs, Im talking 10+ minutes, if you haven't attacked anything in that time or spoken, then you become eligible for an AFK kick, initiating a Harassment kick would cause a slight check in the chat logs, certain keywords would cause you to be come eligible for that.
However it should require all party members agreeing on the reason for the Vote, not just "Kick yes/no?".

No matter what safeguards you put in place however, The Tank will basically be allowed to do what he wants with impunity because Tank queue is instant, "do what i tell you or ill ditch you to another 40 minutes waiting for a tank" is what we will see a lot.

Letting people kick is going to be nothing but bad. The abuse we have now is NOTHING compared to what it will be. If you played WoW you would know that. Giving people another way to be a dbag is not helpful.

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I only wish our BLM experience today in CM was as good as afk. Ours alternated between sitting down as we fought and actively going out of his way to mess up our fights by aggroing mobs we could bypass or pulling in extra adds we didn't need. He obviously soon ceased getting heals, but after sulking a while at the entrance after dying he, alas, kept coming back.

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this blm (my groups blm) i'm assuming wanted us to succeed so he could get his 100 tomes, he just didnt want to participate and wanted them for free but yeah, that sucks. :(

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Having been through the various kinds of idiocy in FFXI for so many years ("Arrowburn/Manaburn/TPBurn only", "lol[insert misunderstood job here]", "R/M/E/D weapon only", among other messed up standards fed to wannabe elitists by BG), I will stand by the Duty Finder system. The flaws can be addressed as time goes on.

The case against the vote-kick system seems sound, but I'd like to see something that holds people accountable for actions that have negative effects on the party.

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Misunderstood job? S-E is completely crap at balancing classes. How long ago was it they "balanced" rangers? Only time you see them now is if they decided to get off the dust of the gear only. BLM has gone from the best endgame class, to arguably the second worst.

In this game they have a decent balancing. But with new content and gear, I bet we will see jobs pulling ahead or get left behind.

Anyway, for the vote system. It will always carry good and bad things with it. But as with everything else in the game, it's up to the players of how it will be used.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Misunderstood job? S-E is completely crap at balancing classes. How long ago was it they "balanced" rangers? Only time you see them now is if they decided to get off the dust of the gear only. BLM has gone from the best endgame class, to arguably the second worst.

(snip)

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At least you aren't sitting on the worst. Being a RDM main hurts, you don't even know. (Although, you guys are more like third because THF)

I am perfectly okay with a votekick system. I still don't understand why people rely on the Duty Finder at all for endgame content since you really should be pulling from your FC for that sort of thing, but if you are going to do so than votekick is almost necessary for when you get uncooperative or, for lack of better wording, bad players. I don't use the DF much, but I know from experience that spamhealing healers or a tank that can't hold hate at all can drive a dungeon down even if everyone else is on their A-game.

Luckily SE knows elitist jerks will abuse it and are looking for ways to keep that from happening.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Mine is that there should without a doubt be a votekick feature and it should be implemented ASAP.

I agree with a /votekick, BUT not a /kick.

I'm with the OP actually. PUG end game is a cesspool of humanity at the moment. It'll fix the rare occasion you have someone go AFK on you / griefing you. It will then add times where you'll get kicked from CM or PR for wearing AF, 48 ACCs and a 50 weapon. Can't have you adding precious seconds to their speed run after all. Don't already have your relic? Good luck staying in a group through Primals to actually get your relic. Don't have full DL? You aren't wanted in AK. and so on.

The idea to instead have a vote AFK that requires user interaction is a good compromise. Then add a duty finder blacklist.

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

I noticed a few small mistakes in your post, but don't worry I've corrected them.

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If you want to run with 'end-game' people, make your own group. Stop using the casual dungeon tool.

I don't see why they shouldn't add a vote kick option. Honestly, if you get into a group and they are petty and obnoxious enough to vote kick you for some silly reason or just to be jerks or bullies then did you REALLY want to sit in the same dungeon with that group for 30-60 minutes anyways?

Let me just quote all of you babies. Deal with it. If the group doesn't want to carry you then they don't. So much for a "mature community" if you can't get over a video game rofl.

People who watch cutscenes for the enjoyment of the game would get kicked also.

there will also be severed penalties for kicking poople for no reasons, misusing the game mechanics and DF. That could lead to bans if complaints are filed.

It is sad that we need such things at all. OR that people would abuse it for personal desires. It seems MMO's are really not for them.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

there will also be severed penalties for kicking poople for no reasons, misusing the game mechanics and DF. That could lead to bans if complaints are filed.

It is sad that we need such things at all. OR that people would abuse it for personal desires. It seems MMO's are really not for them.

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Gamers have certainly changed since I started playing, where the majority now would abuse such past helpful systems. It is sad to see indeed.

Watch your first cutscene: get booted from party. Fun...

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Originally Posted by Farmer

I think this goes back to my point, that you are booting someone for other reasons then just being afk, or badmouthing, which is the ONLY time someone should EVER be booted from a party. Otherwise dissolve the party if its a failure, dont use a system to boot people who need to learn, and you have agreed to be with until a certain point in a dungeon.

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I gotta disagree with those being the ONLY reasons someone should ever be booted from a party; while CM certainly has very lax gear requirements, and people should be allowed to watch the cutscenes when it's their first time, booting someone for poor gear in dungeons such as AK or hard mode primals is absolutely reasonable. (The trick is, they're adding hard-coded gear level requirements for these anyway, so my point is purely academic)

Once you hit level cap, you can no longer make your character more powerful through the accumulation of EXP. Instead, you do the equivalent of leveling up by acquiring better gear. Attempting to walk into HM Titan with only AF and subpar weapon and accessories is like trying to walk into CM at level 40 or less. You can't do that because there's a hardcoded level requirement, because you'd get roflstomped by the trash mobs if you tried. It was simply an oversight on SE's part to not treat gear level the same way, which they are going to correct in patch 2.1

Don't use "undergeared" as excuse for not having /votekick. In the next update(when this could be added earliest) they are adding GearCheck which means it won't be possible to do anything undergeared.

Also, they're adding in a karma system that can't be used with premade members. Why not just prevent /votekick on teams where a majority of the members queued together?

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Originally Posted by Amberion

BLM has gone from the best endgame class, to arguably the second worst.

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I have no idea what you mean by this. BLM is a great class for endgame if geared and played well. In almost everything I do endgame or otherwise my BLM will parse higher DPS than any other class except other BLMs with better gear and bards.

Then Do you have an any idea about how to against afkers?

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

Have you seen me say anything about CM/Praehere? There's a reason for that THOSE are the gearing dungeons and none really have gear requirements. I've specifically targeted AK because yes with Artemis Bow +1 I CAN carry a dps with a L40 weapon, but why should I have to carry someone who is effectively useless just because I'm geared? Should I never use the DF for fear of people who want to be carried? To anyone who says "people should be able to queue no matter how undergeared"

1) Make a party of 4 friends.
2) Go get a L40 weapon, leveling jewlery and AF.
3) Put them on, try to clear AK, see how much fun you have.

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On another note: I would fully support gear requirements, preferrably avg ilevel for instances such as AK, Garuda, and Titan all of which cannot be completed with "whatever" gear.

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People like you are the whole problem with this game.

opposite to what OP has experienced. I have seen more AFK/trolls than I've seen mean party members. Vote-kick required IMO

The bottom line, unfortunately, is that Griefing happens.
Could be the "elitist" griefing other players (Yes, "requiring" drops that occur from the content that you are currently running is griefing.) Could be a malicious individual trying to sabotage a run. Either way, the tool WILL be abused and used properly in equal measure. The problem, as always, is the human element behind it. And the solution is for all of us, collectively, to get over our own childish bull.

The tool is simply a tool. The intent is what worries us.

I don't get the point of these discussions. If your not fully geared, then why don't you try the instance later after you obtain the appropriate gear? You would have less worry of dealing with jerks and less worry of being kicked. Most of the time, people don't kick just for the lulz. Its usually for a reason.