I have a minor question. Why dont you open: PB, Twin Snakes, Snap, Snap, Demolish? You'll get the 10% dmg buff before Snap Punching, and you'll get 2 stack of GL + 10%dmg before Demolish.Quote:
Originally Posted by McDizz
Why Monks need a Buff + Petition!
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10-05-2013, 08:22 AMparadigmshift
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10-05-2013, 09:09 AMAlmalexia
I've been tinkering with effective PB use and I guess this is as good a thread to post as any.
I can squeeze in 5 attacks while PB is active. While I definitely want to use 3 Snaps for GL3, what of the other two? Is it better to DK > Twin > Snap x3, or Snapx5? Maybe Twin and Snapx4?
Snap x5: 900 potency
DK > Twin > Snap x3: 150 + 154 + 648 = 952 potency
Twin > Snap x4: 140 + 792 = 932 potency
But wait! Snap won't put me in Opo form during Perfect Balance and my next DK won't apply the debuff. Will this impact DPS?
DK > Twin > Snap x3: 150 + 154 + 648 = 952 potency
DK > Twin > Demolish > Fracture > ToD > DK > ... = 165 + 140 + DoT + 110 + 44 + 165 ... = 624 potency
1576 net potency
DoTs don't benefit from DK's bonus, so it's not a factor to consider. But direct damage does. Can we squeeze more damage out of the opening rotations by using DK at the end of PB?
Twin > Snapx3 > DK : 140 + 594 + 165 = 899 potency
DK > Twin > Demolish > Fracture > ToD > DK > ... = 165 + 154 + DoT + 120 + 48 + 180 ... = 667 potency
1566 net potency
The difference is not significant, but the first option is more intuitive. -
10-05-2013, 05:31 PMAllyrionThanks. I've been wondering about this myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Almalexia
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10-06-2013, 01:07 AMPonkipon
Right now i just need a change on GL. Its mechanic is real rubbish.
I'm not 50 yet, ok. But if i read correctly, endgame encounters force us to move a lot, right ? So if we don't take into account PB, i have to do 3 rotations to get GLx3, means 20+ seconds. Hoping that during these 20 seconds, there won't be any aoe spells to dodge.
Seriously ?
I'm not complaining about my damage because it's actually pretty insane when GL stacks are here, but please change its mechanics. Make it last longer, make other skills grant us GL or delete these stacks, but do something.
Also Shoulder Tackle needs adjustements. I mean it's more movement skill than a CC for me. And currently movement is crucial, decrease it's cooldown. 90 seconds is too long, it's even longer than Internal Release that grants me 30% critical hit increase.
Hello ? -
10-06-2013, 06:18 AMPsyops
Boost - 10 Second CD - Refreshes or adds one stack of Greased Lightning. Add this please
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10-06-2013, 07:48 AMShyle
I'm loving my monk (lv. 50 gearing up currently) but I agree with many of the posters:
GL needs either duration increase or maybe have it lose 1 stack at a time (every 5 seconds after duration is done?)
and some sort of ranged attach (Chi Blast). Make it cost 120/160 TP and allow it to grant GL? -
10-06-2013, 09:35 AMCrescent_Dusk
Both Twin and Greased Lightning buffs need an increase in duration to allow for more rotational variety. I'd like to use True Strike more often but the fear of gaps in a fight making Twin fall off makes me just use Twin all the time except when I got some spare time.
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10-06-2013, 09:59 AMvRoad
Remove the stun portion of Shoulder Charge or change it into a silence and reduce the cooldown to 30-45s.
Remove the stacking effect of GL and just have Enhanced Greased Lightning 1/2 read as 14/21% damage increase and 10/15% increased attack speed.
I can't think of another class that relies so heavily on a buff that takes at minimum, without CDs, 18 seconds to stack. Just stack the effects and keep it as a one buff thing. -
10-06-2013, 01:34 PMEckoh
If you think monks need a buff then you are flat bad at playing a monk. Monk is the highest DPS potential in game right you you simply cannot be a window licker and do top end DPS with them. Good monks do great damage, bad ones do pathetic damage... If you think they do not do enough damage guess what group you fall in.
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10-06-2013, 02:26 PMsilentwindfr
@eckoh: from where come this data? a parseer?
we know parseer are not accurate, just for information, the two DoT of the monk Touch of Death and demolish deal a looot of damage when used with the 3 stack of GL and twin snake. it make the data of the parseer totally inaccurate!
if you don't believe me, try to go put your dot on the dummy, you will see. -
10-06-2013, 02:42 PMJabbaDK>TS>Snap punch/demolish, flank only and get a very high dps as a monk, problem is the class is boring, and it bring really nothing special to a raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckoh
Bard got the songs, a ranged silence, a very nice dps.
Dragoon too, can top a dps recount, and bring a piercing debuff for himself and the bard.
Blm is another high dps class, with very good aoe.
The smn is just godly in coil, due to boss split/adds etc.
The monk got:
A very bad aoe silence
A medium aoe, that can't be spammed.
A int and blunt debuff -_-
A healing buff that is overmeh.
A useless purge.
i love my mnk but i find it lackluster at best. -
10-06-2013, 02:43 PMCrescent_DuskYeah they're good damage. They still need quality of life improvements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckoh
Summoners are great damage too but that doesn't mean they should still be unable to command their pets to move while casting a spell. -
10-06-2013, 03:18 PMsilentwindfr
ok, since i'm a nice guys, i will give some number! let's use the potency and see how much of damage we can hope get from the monk best combo of 3 skill (and because i'm nice i will take the best condition possible for the monk ^^):
- Dragon Kick: 150
- true strike: 150
- snap punch: 180
total of potency: 480
we know that the monk can increase this by +36% (+5% from fire punch, +10% from twin snake, +21% from Greased lightning)
total of potency full buff: 652.8
let's take a DRG combo as comparaison:
- True Thrust: 150
- Vorpal thrust: 200
- Full thrust; 300
total potency: 650
the dragon can increase of 10% him damage from heavy thrust
total potency full buff: 715
why i didn't take in account the reduction of defence from dragon kick and evisceration? because it don't change the potency.
now let's see with the speed, let's take for the monk a 1.9 gcd and for the dragoon a 2.4, for the data, we will use 3 time this combo.
- for the monk is 1.9 x 9 : 17.1 sec
- for the dragoon is 2.4 x 9 : 21.6 sec
a difference of 4.5 second, giving 2 more attack for the monk.
time to enter in the main subject, for stay nice we will use the potency full buff.
giving for the monk: 652.8 x 3 = 1958.4
we add the two first attack from the combo for the 2 hit gain with the speed. 300+36% = 408
total for the monk : 2366.4
now the dragoon: 715 x 3 = 2145
difference with advantage for the monk of 221.4
on paper, monk as the time pass can be more deadly than the dragoon is true, but is not that amazing that some want to say us. 3 point i have not mentioned in this:
- the critical, since the damage of the monk are lower per hit the difference of damage gain from the critical can make up for the difference of hit. critical is a flat +50% of damage (if a monk hit at 400 in critical it will be 600, if the dragon hit for 600 it can reach 900)
- the builder rotation, that the time we need to get the GL up to 3 stack without perfect balance. the damage will be loose when the dragoon only need 2 skill for get at the maximum of it capacity.
- finally, and that the most important point, the fight mechanic by itself, it's really rare to get the perfect rotation, often the monster will make us loose our GL or simply don't allows us to hit on the side or the back.
all of this for say that, on paper the monk is a nice dps, in the fact... is not true, dragoon (the other melee dps) will outdamage the monk (at the same gears/skill)
do the monk need a buff? hmm... no, he need to get ride of all this trouble as position and damage boost from GL. if you do this, the monk will be more enjoyable first and more balanced.
ps: i was playing monk in the V1 and believe me i have fight hard while the beta for make them understand the trouble and i was not alone on this. a lot of people are saying, we are good learn to play. you can't be perfect we are human, sadly the monk at it is for get the maximum damage you need to be perfect! you need to be a machine that will execute the same rotation perfectly for get the best of the class.
another point i haven't say, the dragoon combo with full buff can be used from level 28! the monk one... 50.
ohh before i forget, 100 potency = your automatic attack. -
10-06-2013, 03:48 PMXal
raise the GL buff duration all gonna be fine like 20 sec.
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10-06-2013, 05:04 PMJaydedFists of fire is 5% dmg increase not 10%. Was nerfed. Didn't check the rest of your math just pointing this out.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
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10-06-2013, 05:13 PMXal
nerfin monks? ffs........
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10-06-2013, 07:12 PMRapisoWhat is this bullshit !? Nobody react ! You sesriously think it's nice to post some random low-tier TC and thinking you're a nice guy ? Please ...Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
First, why are you picking only 3 skills from each class ? It's not even the most used (True Strike).
If you want to compare their DPS, at least add auto attack damage to your results, it's 30% of our Damages.
Fist of fire is 5%, Twin Snakes is 10%, right, but it's not even in your combo...
Why your monk has 1.9 gcd and your dragoon 2.4, it's like 150 more skillspeed. Assuming they have the same level of gear, you've to take this into consideration and take the same amount of skillspeed for each class or transcribe these extra stats into crit/dtr (but you'll need to start consider crit and dtr in your calculation)
You add 2 extra hit for the monk but this is not enough to sync with the dragoon (1.9*11=20.9 < 21.6), your results are misleading, you should have done an average potency per second for each class as conslusion.
Your points :
- Can't understand your point on Crit ??? Monk and Dragoon benefit from the crit the same way.
- Ok, but you can still top charting in primal fights.
- Subjective.
If an equal geared dragoon has more dps than you, it just means he is better than you.
Please, stop the misinformation. -
10-06-2013, 07:24 PMDivineheroum offtopic but blade&soul's in beta now? or are u talkin about the korean beta?Quote:
Originally Posted by xXRaineXx
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10-06-2013, 08:32 PMsilentwindfr
@rapiso: yeah just did check, fist of fire is only 5% now. (was 10% in p3-4)
- why i didn't put auto attack? we don't control auto attack, i'm doing a comparaison between a basic rotation of 3 skill.
- why true strike? for the raptor stance, true strike is the most powerfull skill in term of potency twin snake = 140 at best. we can argue too about why dragon kick and not bootshine that auto critical in the back when in opo opo stance, one more time because dragon kick = 150, bootshine = 130.
- i do have both class at 50, my monk is in amdapor and my dragoon in DL.
actually my monk go to 2.04 in gcd under self buff (1.93 with selene in the group) i think high stuffed monk can confirm that we get close of 1.9 in better stuff. dragoon don't have a lot speed attack on them stuff.
- why 2 more strike, when the difference is 4.5 sec? 4.5/1.9 = 2.3684 skill, i'm not sure i can found a 0.3684 skill somewhere.
- can't understand my point on the critical? here some fact i have tested my self, with full self buff and cooldown (blood for blood include for both) my monk hit for 570 with him best strike, my dragoon hit for 870 and we are talking of critical. actually in group both have a difference of 25 in str and 1 in base damage (ifrit didn't have give me my claw yet); i doubt it can make up for this sort of differnce. true blood for blood give more boost for the dragoon (+10% actually)
my point is, as we all know, the dragoon hit slower than the monk, but hit harder, then he get more damage from the critical, because it's a flat boost of 50% of damage.
- on fight like ifrit? no impossible the loose of GL and twin snake is killing our dps drastically. that a fact, monk are only good when they don't loose GL/twin snake.
- is not subjective to say that the game mechanic is hurting the monk the most! or you want to turn blind eyes about what every monk say on the loose of GL, directly link to the game mechanic of many... most fight in the game.
why i haven't used a longer rotation? why i haven't included the out gcd skill? 2 reason:
- about the out gcd skill, the dragoon have more skill at use out gcd
- a mon complex rotation will have become more complex to show in math. like the damage done while the builder and how much time you spend for get it. here it's a simple comparaison between a basic rotation that can be used as main basic cycle for get the best damage of both. indeed the rotation is more complexe. we can talk of the timer of twin snake or heavy thrust.
by the way, you did miss my conclusion saying that the monk don't need a boost, but a change in it mechanic for be less... punishing.
we can increase the duration of GL but it will not change the fact, that you will need a full rotation of 9 skill for get to full trottle.
the main trouble about monk damage are based on the damage boost in GL and the fact that most of the skill ask to be on side or back for get the full power of it.
If they change this, take out the damag boost from GL and position of the skill, they will be able to focus more on the combo system and who know give to the monk tool for be more team friendly (outside mantra) -
10-06-2013, 08:38 PMoceanlord
im going to hate playing monk on a boss like demon wall... i hope there is no such boss anymore
and i hate oversized boss... although its awesome but it will make monk positioning bit harder -
10-06-2013, 09:24 PMChaozKYou cant get Rear attacks at all on demon wall, however you can still get flanks. MNKs can still get around 90% of their dps from flank alone. You mainly lose the crit/extra potency from rear Bootshine and True strike but the rest is still intact. With Dragoon however you lose your best Debuff (Disembovel) and your best DoT (Chaos Thrust), so he gets actually hit harder in terms of dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanlord
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10-06-2013, 09:44 PMRapisoYou didn't understand my post right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
I will be easier : Don't try to theorycraft when you can't, you're just giving false informations to people.
I'll repeat :
- Don't try to compare the dps of 2 class with taking absolutly nothing into consideration.
- If you don't use Twin snakes in your calculations, don't use his buff too.
- You've to normalize skill potency with crit. (eg:Boottshine)
- Skillspeed isn't a good stat to max, I don't think 1.9s GCD is reachable if you want your acc cap. But this is not the point, the main issue is that your TC has absolutly no sense, and i hope you'll not foul people.
- "0.3684s skill" ... Do a fucking average idiot ! Read my post the next time.
- So you're that kind of people who think that the biggest crit you can make, the more dps you have ... Man ... I just can't argue with a monkey ...
- Mnk are very good when they can keep their buffs, they are OK on primals.
I stop here, I can't explain you how the whole world works. -
10-07-2013, 03:01 AMsilentwindfr
you are the one that don't understand, you try to justify you own reasoning by insulting me.
what i did was taking in account optimal condition for the monk, meaning without taking in account the rotation needed for keep the buff. i'm not there for tell this situation or this situation. we try to get a base for understand the potential of a class.
i can make a more accurate calcul by using the whole rotation of each class on 90 second if you want, that not the point.
some point i will try to make clear here for show how much you are focus on a small part of the monk dps.
- you talk of ACC here it's important when you reach bahamut coil that normally must be done with Crystal tower equipement, we don't know how much acc/skillspeed we will get from it.
we don't make this for bahamut coil only but for any situation.
- other point is perfectly possible to keep 1.9 with a scholar in the group for 30 sec.
- if Dragon kick critical the damage input will be better, when you do a basic comparaison with optimal situation you don't use the critical in account, because is not possible to know if you will or not critical on this or this skill.
- about the critical, i'm simply asthonished... you didn't read me, i have simply said this: Dragon hit slower, but per hit the damage is far stronger. since the critical bonus is a flat +50% it's means he will get a better dps from the critical than the monk. i will try to make it simplier for you understand the point:
- the monk will land 11 hit of 10 damage all critical on a time of 20 second, 10+50% = 15 x 11 = 165/20 = 8.25 dps
- the dragoon will land 9 hit of 15 damage all critical on the same 20 second, 15+50% = 22.5 x 9 = 202.5/20 = 10.125 dps
i hope this time it's more clear for you. indeed in normal condition is not possible to get that much critical in row, and more important the difference of damage per hit between dragoon and monk are more than 5 damage *grins*
why compare with soo little thing in consideration? because add more variable will increase the lenght of the thread to even break the limit with edit. why compare dragoon and monk? because they are close enough for be used as comparaison between each, the other dps (ranged) don't have the same restriction as position, avoid melee attack of the boss or combo.
indeed both class have a focus different as dps, however, we can't know where is the dps of the monk if we don't do comparaison.
finally, we lack too much data from the game, for begin to say with absolut, our dps is right or not right. we will need tons of time to check data ACCURATE, not from the parseer. it's well know that the DoT are... inaccuratly boosted in the data and is important to point it Demolish is as strong than Bio 2.
oh and more important, mister i don't read until the end, the math i have done, show that monk dps can be fairly good in optimal condition, actually better than the dragoon, i'm not for a boost of the Monk. will be nice to understand this. but the point of this... is only in optimal condition. and is fairly well know that the..."optimal" condition are extremely hard to maintain for a long time!
ps mister world best monk, if you are not ok with my explanation feel free to give true constructive argument with math into it... simply insulting and saying you know more than the other is not constructive and don't make your point valid.
we don't talk of the monk only in Bahamut Coil, but in every aspect of the game, is called balance. thanks to take this in consideration. -
10-07-2013, 04:36 AMsavant07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVDqzSBUhKY
All people whining about monk can STFU now. -
10-07-2013, 05:26 AMElHeggunteWearing some of the best gear available and wailing on an immobile dummy that doesn't fight back doesn't really mean much. How many end-game fights are there were a Monk can just sit on the target without worry and achieve that sort of DPS? Our DPS is indeed in a good place, but that doesn't mean we don't need a few QoL improvements to make it more consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by savant07
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10-07-2013, 05:54 AMVejjFinally one who's understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElHeggunte
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10-07-2013, 05:59 AMhimehimeAK, turn 1, turn 2 until you get allagan rot (tbh you can still dps with it, just have to be very careful or have tanks have immunity), turn 4Quote:
Originally Posted by ElHeggunte
theres your endgame monk stationary target dps. ifrit garuda and titan do have the annoying invuln phases, but everything else (aka the stuff that matters) monk does fine in, with 100% GL3 uptime -
10-07-2013, 06:08 AMsavant07Pretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by himehime
Honestly you keep asking for QoL changes but that just means "BUFF MONKS" to the point where they can keep 100% uptime one everything which then means a DPS buff which also means that you will be even higher in DPS than you already are. -
10-07-2013, 06:36 AMKiokin
The two posters above me are Bards. Go figure.
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10-07-2013, 06:44 AMGarnatian
I don't think someone playing the easiest class in the game has any right to talk about difficulty. I am looking at you, BRDs.
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10-07-2013, 06:50 AMsavant07
You people just don't get the point. Monks are meant to be the hardest DPS class and gain the highest DPS. Make it easier then your DPS should be lower
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10-07-2013, 06:53 AMKiokinKind of like how Bards are the easiest and are the lowe-...oh wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by savant07
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10-07-2013, 07:18 AMNexxus
On parser as mnk i'm always on top dmg (not the FFXIV-APP parser, logrep 2.0 one), one of the bard in my group as almost the same amount of ilvl stuff, in the same case of equipments.
I don't think our dps is low unless we lose to much our GL3 The downtime is killing us, and i must say our enmity generation may be a problem, making us slow down the DPS and losing all 3 stack of GL...
MNK need a buff, but defensive buff, some utilities for the whole group or atleast a small part of the group (thoses that are in the melee). (i did throw some idea somewhere~).
Most of DD class can lower their enmity (Mnk have nothing), does jump from drg erase it totally ? -
10-07-2013, 07:32 AMChaozKNah but it is usually enough to drop from #1 to #2. Also because you have to run back lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Nexxus
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10-07-2013, 07:55 AMMeleena
We just need a retreat move, let shoulder tackle keep the stun.
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10-07-2013, 11:49 AMsavant07Uuh, they are the lowest DPS in a tank and spank fight. In fact they are the lowest DPS even in fights with minor/moderate movementQuote:
Originally Posted by Kiokin
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10-07-2013, 01:24 PMraikage
Just give monk GL 4 and we can end all this.
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10-07-2013, 01:51 PMEckohnot unless the bard is retarded.. I am always the one of the top if not the top DPS in all my groups and i have more server first skills then anyone on my server. Also was world 5th on elevator... i do not play with bad players... however a good bard does much more damage then these forum QQers can ever doQuote:
Originally Posted by savant07
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10-07-2013, 02:54 PMOdinTheTainted
I think monks are exceptional dps, my only complaint is,
*lack of aoe ( I know we are a class that focus only on single targets, but atleast increase arm of the destroyer to 80-100 potency.)
*when a target runs the animation on monks attack get canceled, lowering my dps.
* "haymaker" - having alot of potential to add a much higher dps, however it lacks in dungeons because most of the time if we have a good tank, you'll never utilize it because you'll never get hit. (They should enable it after the third or forth snap punch combo. Just to keep it viable in dungeons.) -
10-07-2013, 03:17 PMsavant07Or you just don't have a monk that can keep up or has a reasonable skill level as your top bards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eckoh
Melee was designed to do the most DPS but also takes the most risk and skill. That is why making it easier for them should result it less DPS. That is how the whole thing was designed. If you all want it easier, why not just make one "DPS CLASS" and everyone can roll that and have the same skill and well, pretty much same everything cause you know, equality.