Solution to WAR problem is to nerf PLD

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Frankly I dont see why they have not done this beforehand. Its simple math...
Paladin takes 0.8x Damage, = 1.25x EHP and 1.25x Healing Received.
Therefore, Warrior takes 1.0x Damage, and has a stance that gives them 25% more HP AND 25% more Healing Received.

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I think what would a better idea would be to give a WAR conditional healing bonuses based on health percentages. For example;
# >75% = no bonus
# <75% = 15% bonus
# <50% = 35% bonus
# <25% = 50% bonus

So effectively a WAR would receive more healing the less health they had making recovering from burst damage easier, more efficient and rewarding for intelligent healing.

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Originally Posted by Fuuljo

I think what would a better idea would be to give a WAR conditional healing bonuses based on health percentages. For example;
# >75% = no bonus
# <75% = 15% bonus
# <50% = 35% bonus
# <25% = 50% bonus

So effectively a WAR would receive more healing the less health they had making recovering from burst damage easier, more efficient and rewarding for intelligent healing.

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That would fit the idea of MRD as a class it would seem... obviously they might tamper with the numbers, but I think the concept is something that should've been there as a passive trait for MRD/WAR.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

THIS. THIS is the problem. Yes, warrior can be carried through titan. Congrats, you took hits and your healers went god mode, cool. Why? The fight would have been much easier with a paladin.

Coils: Find me ONE video of warior tanking Cad from turn 1. Just one video. I have not been able to find a single warrior tank vid from turn one final boss. I'm pretty confident a sch with several ilvl90 pieces might be able to carry a similarly geared warrior, but a ilvl 70 healer and ilvl 70 pld can do it just fine. Why make it harder than it needs to be? You see, once you reach this content, the problems with warrior show. Its effective hp is too low, its self heals are too infrequent. So many warriors come on here and say "I can heal myself for a billion once every two minutes." Cool story, what are you doing for those other 119 seconds? Getting wrecked and killed? Awesome.

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well this BC from a warroir view. he does tank cad for a bit (off tank?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8EVwkOd2js

and turn 2 if you are curious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX8jKn6MiT0

im not taking side on this issue as my war tank is still lvl 30 (im trying to lvl my pgl to lvl 30 before i proceed to leveling war)

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Originally Posted by astrobear

well this BC from a warroir view. he does tank cad for a bit (off tank?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8EVwkOd2js

and turn 2 if you are curious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX8jKn6MiT0

im not taking side on this issue as my war tank is still lvl 30 (im trying to lvl my pgl to lvl 30 before i proceed to leveling war)

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The WAR in Turn 1 is tanking the split Caduceus which does pretty much half as much damage as the full Caduceus and even then at around 3-4 Stacks he gets absolutely destroyed while the PLD remains fine (both snakes buff at pretty much the same time after split). Basically this just shows what we've been saying all along, that WAR can do content but it's a giant handicap when you could have just brought a PLD and done it easier/safer/better. Also there is no way a WAR could have tanked the remaining snake after they killed the first one, there is a reason they burned the WAR one down first.

As far as Turn 2, due to the mechanics of the fights you aren't really ever tanking the boss for more than 30-40 seconds at a time so survival is more on your healers keeping up with the burst for that time frame. As long as your party members are on the ball with keeping High Voltage silenced and passing Allagan Rot the only real threat either tank faces is getting hit by a triple Ballast due to bad positioning while still having the Vulnerability Debuffs. Also should a tank die a PLD could Hallowed Ground and give enough time for the second tank to raise back up and voke it off before stacks start increasing again.

I don't know anything about Coil, but I've done Ifrit and AK and CM and all that lower-end end-game stuff.

I'd LOVE to see something like this happen, however I think it is too much change and I would never expect it:

- Warriors get Bloodbath as a passive trait all the time at level 50. It stays @ 25% of damage done healed, but its a perma buff that is attached to Defiance. This would both improve viability, and add enmity generation from overheals (if I understand the self-heal mechanics correctly).
- Paladins get Spirits Within taken away, and instead, they get an insta-cast, 50% of mana pool cost, 45sec CD others only heal with a rather large potency. Or you could make that a medium potency group heal that discludes the PLD, or even takes some of the PLD's health.

It would let the WAR come up to where PLD are in terms of tanking, take away some DPS from PLDs so that WARs are the clear winner in that category, and it will add some more thinking to PLDs. WARs would be solely focused on keeping aggro and healing themselves, while PLDs can use their OPed CDs and mitigation to easy-mode tank, while providing strategic healing to the group in times of need, while taking some of the pressure off healers because the fight will be longer with less DPS coming from the PLD.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

The WAR gets absolutely destroyed while the PLD remains fine

this just shows what we've been saying all along, that WAR can do content but it's a giant handicap when you could have just brought a PLD and done it easier/safer/better.

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What this thread has been saying is that the solution to war tanking is to make paladin worse.

WAR= struggling, PLD=fine
Solution: change PLD to struggling rather than buff WAR to fine... Logic!

I don't think anyone would argue WAR would become too overpowered if it got a buff. But what is being asked for is a nerf to PLD not a buff to WAR.

If one job is bad making other jobs bad so they can be on the same level of badness as the bad job just makes the game bad.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

I'm sorry if you find the warrior playstyle stressful

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Its not so much that the warrior may find its playstyle stressful. Its that healers find its playstyle stressful (also ineffective, but thats for another time).

Pretty much. The fact that PLD can tank level 90 content without any problem, it's quite indicative of their skill. Not to mention the number of useful abilities like stun and silence, why do even have the last one?

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Originally Posted by Fuuljo

I think what would a better idea would be to give a WAR conditional healing bonuses based on health percentages.

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A while back I proposed something like: WAR Healing Bonus = (1-Current Hit Point %). So if the WAR was at 90% hit points, heals were 10% more effective, at 10% hit points, heals were 90% more effective. But I do really like the idea of a scaling healing bonus, however the numbers work out.

Love this thread..

a Short breakdown..

WAR's.. NERF PLD so its worse then WAR so we are wanted.

Dev Team- WAR is fine. Lrn2play

PLD's Lol' wut ?


Anyone promoting PLD to get nerfed is being a Tool, I don't see PLD's running around kicking WAR's out of the party for tank slots.

If you want to bitch at people.. Go cry Nerf at the healers and DD's for not wanting to take you... Just the same way people don't want MONK's right now...


I leveled a WAR first.. then a PLD due to the difference. I enjoy both.
and with that..

Buff WAR's.. don't nerf a Job.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

What this thread has been saying is that the solution to war tanking is to make paladin worse.

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I meant what we've been saying in the other threads in general. I don't want to see PLD nerfed, it's fine how it is. People seem to get the wrong idea that just because PLDs are easier to manage than WAR that makes the content faceroll easy. Coil and such are still hard with a PLD, they are just more manageable. With a PLD if everyone does their job properly your success rate is pretty high, but with a WAR its a crapshoot. That's the biggest problem, even if everyone is doing perfect WAR tanks can still eat it should the boss decide he wants to be a dick. A PLD is reliable, a WAR is not.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

I meant what we've been saying in the other threads in general. I don't want to see PLD nerfed, it's fine how it is. People seem to get the wrong idea that just because PLDs are easier to manage than WAR that makes the content faceroll easy. Coil and such are still hard with a PLD, they are just more manageable. With a PLD if everyone does their job properly your success rate is pretty high, but with a WAR its a crapshoot. That's the biggest problem, even if everyone is doing perfect WAR tanks can still eat it should the boss decide he wants to be a dick. A PLD is reliable, a WAR is not.

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That's fine then, when you said that's what we've been saying I took "we" to mean the people in this thread.

I entirely agree with a buff to WAR, personally I don't see it as a tank at all right now, in 1.x before we had colourful stickers slapped on us telling us what our job is I always looked at MRD and WAR as a DD that had the ability to tank. The problem with it in 2.0 is that they've slapped the tank sticker on it without making any major changes to the way the job is played. Essentially packaging a DD that can take a beating as a fully fledged tank. So it could really use some polishing to actually fill that role. I really see WAR's as being the job that when the tank dies they'll be the DD at the top of the hate list rather than the healer or other DD's and has the hp to hold it while the tank gets back up. But it really can't work like that when its got the tank sticker slapped on it rather than the DD sticker.

I actually think that OP is probably correct, and here's why. According to Yoshi, SqEnx's intent was that no one would be able to clear Bahamut's coil with the gear currently available. He believed they would need Crystal Tower gear. The fact that people were able to clear through the first four turns so quickly (making Crystal Tower mostly obsolete for them in the process) suggests that things were easier than intended.

That all leads me to conclude that PLD may have been too strong. However, I don't think the disparity between PLD and WAR is as great as some people believe. It just seems like, based on Yoshi's intent, the difficulty of tanking endgame content with WAR is actually the intended difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Sebastien

I actually think that OP is probably correct, and here's why. According to Yoshi, SqEnx's intent was that no one would be able to clear Bahamut's coil with the gear currently available. He believed they would need Crystal Tower gear. The fact that people were able to clear through the first four turns so quickly (making Crystal Tower mostly obsolete for them in the process) suggests that things were easier than intended.

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Well Yoshida said he didn't expect more than 100 people to beat coil before 2.1 and given that Turn 5 is a giant kick to the testicles I don't find this hard to believe. The major problem isn't gear because you can save up and buy relic gear without ever stepping foot inside the coil. Crystal Tower is largely irrelevant to most people who have been at cap for a while and only have one job they want to gear out since they could have saved up plenty of Mythology by this point. You can do the first few turns of Coil with a WAR in just DL+Relic Weapon, it's just harder and leaves pretty much zero breathing room for freak occurrences.

Its pretty obvious that War is balanced for the content we currently have and that Pld is over-tuned for the current content (hint we are not supposed to be able to do Coil yet). Pld needs to be brought down not War brought up. People arguing otherwise just want a face roll game.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Its pretty obvious that War is balanced for the content we currently have and that Pld is over-tuned for the current content (hint we are not supposed to be able to do Coil yet). Pld needs to be brought down not War brought up. People arguing otherwise just want a face roll game.

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I have a hard time believing this line of thought.

First off, because all of the other classes don't have that much of a problem meeting the requirements to do coil. the Damage Dealers can all meet the enrage/soft enrage timer, the healers have no real problems keeping anyone alive from incidental damage or keeping PLD tanks up. The only Job that is having a hard time is WAR. While having an overtuned tank can have risidual effects on the DPS requirements and healing requirements, it isn't the only factor to consider.

Second, Paladin is an EXTREMELY easy class to balance a game around. Everything they have is flat or passive and it all scales with mob damage. Their rotation is very simple as well, which eliminates variances due to playstyle as well. You can easily calculate exactly how much dmg a PLD will take over time when they properly use their cooldowns and skills. For a WAR it's much more difficult to calculate, and even more difficult to execute properly. For this reason, it seems more likely that they messed up the balance on WAR and not PLD.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Its pretty obvious that War is balanced for the content we currently have and that Pld is over-tuned for the current content (hint we are not supposed to be able to do Coil yet). Pld needs to be brought down not War brought up. People arguing otherwise just want a face roll game.

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Hint: If we weren't supposed to do Coil yet they would not have added it the game. Hint: You can still do coil with DL WAR, it just requires a bit of luck with bosses not going nuts on you at a bad time. Hint: Crystal Tower will not help WAR in coil because you can already get higher tier gear from Mythology or Coil itself.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

Hint: If we weren't supposed to do Coil yet they would not have added it the game. Hint: You can still do coil with DL WAR, it just requires a bit of luck with bosses not going nuts on you at a bad time. Hint: Crystal Tower will not help WAR in coil because you can already get higher tier gear from Mythology or Coil itself.

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Hint: Maybe you should find the posts by Yoshi himself saying exactly what I have said. They thought Crystal Tower would have been ready but it wasn't. I'm not making things yup or speculating like you are. These are facts from the developers themselves.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Hint: Maybe you should find the posts by Yoshi himself saying exactly what I have said. They thought Crystal Tower would have been ready but it wasn't. I'm not making things yup or speculating like you are. These are facts from the developers themselves.

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Yeah it's not ready, so we don't know what changes are going to be made. They could have gear drop for War that puts it on the same level as PLD. Tweaking a game that's only in the first month of launch leads to huge problems later on. By adjusting it now for the current content, then they'll have to keep adjusting other classes to meet that content.

The whole point of class balance is that throughout the game it says even, otherwise they ping pong with buffs and nerfs. I agree War needs some tweaks, but to demand them right now is stupid since the game is still in its infancy. But to demand a nerf to PLD is also dumb. Nerfs are meant when the mechanics of a game largely favor a class. Mechanics, not play style. They are not one and the same.

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Originally Posted by Stryker

Yeah it's not ready, so we don't know what changes are going to be made. They could have gear drop for War that puts it on the same level as PLD. Tweaking a game that's only in the first month of launch leads to huge problems later on. By adjusting it now for the current content, then they'll have to keep adjusting other classes to meet that content.

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They can't have gear drop for WAR that puts them on the same level as PLD though, unless they completely throw balance to the wind. In order for WAR self heals to come close to being on the same level as PLD mitigation for endgame, WAR's would have to be doing ~250-300 DPS themselves.

Unless there is an ilvl 80 axe that has 92 damage on it that drops in CT, there is no way WAR is even going to approach being on the same level as a PLD even when adding in CT gear.

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Originally Posted by Stryker

Yeah it's not ready, so we don't know what changes are going to be made. They could have gear drop for War that puts it on the same level as PLD. Tweaking a game that's only in the first month of launch leads to huge problems later on. By adjusting it now for the current content, then they'll have to keep adjusting other classes to meet that content.

The whole point of class balance is that throughout the game it says even, otherwise they ping pong with buffs and nerfs. I agree War needs some tweaks, but to demand them right now is stupid since the game is still in its infancy. But to demand a nerf to PLD is also dumb. Nerfs are meant when the mechanics of a game largely favor a class. Mechanics, not play style. They are not one and the same.

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Actual we do know the changes. They have been pretty clear that Crystal Tower will drop gear intended to allow you to progress through Coil.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

They thought Crystal Tower would have been ready but it wasn't. I'm not making things yup or speculating like you are. These are facts from the developers themselves.

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Except they aren't. Yoshida said he expected no more than 100 people to have beaten Coil by 2.1. The reason Crystal Tower wasn't implemented was because they were still balancing it around having 24 people. If Coil wasn't balanced around people with ilvl70 gear they would not have released it also. I personally have tanked on WAR in nothing but DL+Relic Weapon in Coil up to Turn 4. It's possible, you don't need a PLD it just makes the randomness of the fights slightly less random. I don't know why people keep bringing up PLD as if it makes Coil faceroll easy when it doesn't. Even if WAR was buffed to PLD levels of mitigation, you would still need everyone else including the WAR to perform their job at optimal levels in order to succeed.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Actual we do know the changes. They have been pretty clear that Crystal Tower will drop gear intended to allow you to progress through Coil.

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We know the changes are that Crystal Tower gear will be below Mythology/Allagan gear so gear is not going to magically make WAR equal to PLD. We already have ilvl90 Weapons as well in Relic+1 and the damage increase does not allow WAR to self-heal enough to offset the damage difference PLD mitigates. Also any gear that gets added for WAR will be added for PLD as well since gear is Homogenized in this game into either Tank Gear (WAR/PLD) Healer Gear (WHM/SCH) Caster Gear (BLM/SMN) and then Ranged/Melee DD each have their own set for some stupid reason.

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Originally Posted by astrobear

well this BC from a warroir view. he does tank cad for a bit (off tank?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8EVwkOd2js

and turn 2 if you are curious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX8jKn6MiT0

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I haven't done coil yet, so I can only go off of what's in the videos. The first attempt at Cad, you hear them start to stress a bit at 4 stacks, and after the wipe you hear the WAR say outright he's surprised the healer kept him up as long as he did. Then you notice that after the first snake dies, the second one has 8 stacks, and the PLD pops Hallowed Ground. I'm fairly certain a WAR would die there.

The second video appears to be more about tank-swapping than anything (and interrupts, but that's as much a raid thing as anything). Seems like the only reason the PLD died was because a healer went down, and the PLD died during rez animation.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I haven't done coil yet, so I can only go off of what's in the videos. The first attempt at Cad, you hear them start to stress a bit at 4 stacks, and after the wipe you hear the WAR say outright he's surprised the healer kept him up as long as he did. Then you notice that after the first snake dies, the second one has 8 stacks, and the PLD pops Hallowed Ground. I'm fairly certain a WAR would die there.

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the first snake never died, it recombined with the other snake after the warrior died and either combined stacks or goes straight to 8 (I'm not sure which). My group does this fight the same exact way the only main difference is our group has a SCH instead of a second WHM. Personally I think they would of had it the first time if the healer on the WAR would of utilized Stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Cerlic

the first snake never died, it recombined with the other snake after the warrior died and either combined stacks or goes straight to 8 (I'm not sure which). My group does this fight the same exact way the only main difference is our group has a SCH instead of a second WHM. Personally I think they would of had it the first time if the healer on the WAR would of utilized Stoneskin.

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Looks like death throes to me. :p

But, yeah, they re-merge or what have you. I'm assuming they combine stacks. Last reported numbers in the linked vid are 2&3; when the WAR retargets original it has 5, then ramps up to 8 over just a few seconds.

They are not designed to tank the same kind of mobs as good. Good at different things which is good and how FF usually works.

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Originally Posted by UrbanLucrece

They are not designed to tank the same kind of mobs as good. Good at different things which is good and how FF usually works.

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So PLDs are made to tank challenging raid content, and WARs are made to tank 4 mans that no one cares about? Something tells me you should stop posting.

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Originally Posted by UrbanLucrece

They are not designed to tank the same kind of mobs as good. Good at different things which is good and how FF usually works.

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I'm a long time FF player and you're flat out wrong xD. Ninja (wasn't designed to be a tank, but we made it one anyway :p) tanked just as well as pld they simply had different types of mitigations. (I preferred ninja tanks when they were good and well geared, because they rarely took dmg).

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

Except they aren't. Yoshida said he expected no more than 100 people to have beaten Coil by 2.1.

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LOL is all I can say.....

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Originally Posted by Conna

I'm a long time FF player and you're flat out wrong xD. Ninja (wasn't designed to be a tank, but we made it one anyway :p) tanked just as well as pld they simply had different types of mitigations. (I preferred ninja tanks when they were good and well geared, because they rarely took dmg).

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Think you're missunderstanding since you prove my point, didn't want to bring up Ninja job since not sure everyone is FFXI vet :-) Both PLD and NIN was used as tanks but not designed or rather used to tank the same mobs/events. Ninja on Odin? Nono. Ninja in Dynamis nono :) Etc.. Ninja on Ultima/Omega - Yes. Good at different things. Prob the same thing here in FFXIV with PLD and WAR, only out 1 month, give it 6-10 months and ppl will prob figure out events where WAR is better than PLD, who knows what crystal tower entails, hopefully a combination of WAR and PLD is optimal.

I'm a Warrior and I'm currently working on my PLD. It's sad to see when i walk into Titan" 5khp on PLD is like 7k on war" or “let the 4k pld do it " . The gear required to pull that 7k off is expensive. All our items have to be geared toward vit. While pld can be flexible with theirs. War is supposed to have different tanking style than PLD and a lower DPS than dedicated melee classes but can hit the hardest in one go. So its sucks spending all this time leveling and not being wanted in a group. But I get. Pld has skill that grant him 0% dmg for 10"sec or he can boost his dmg reduction to like 80% for like a total of 20" secs. Like someone said pld reduce before getting hit. Which makes it easier to heal. But I think that PLd doesn't contribute much to the DPS so it takes longer to kill things. War can tank and help with DPS. War is all about taking a large amount of dmg and being able to jump back. The issue is that the healers has to be mindful of War hp cup.

With my 7k on war . Titan punches does about 12-17k dmg with DL gear no accessories. And mt does somewhere near 4K.
I’ve discover that war skills aren’t optimized. For ex Holmgang..wtf. Most bosses are unaffected by this low level skill. How about making it add wrath, resist enfeebling effects, boost enmity and force lock on to me for like 10" sec that would be great. Or better yet GIVE ME BACK MY WARRIOR FROM 1.0*

Why they took this away was \dumbest mistake ever.
Antagonize 120 sec
Increases enmity generated by all actions.
Collusion 90 sec
Redirects a portion of enmity generated by target party member's next attack to you. Target must be within 8 yalms.
Mercy Stroke wasn’t as unless as it is now. When fighting multiple mobs there’s no way im pulling off Stroke after stroke. And so with an attack that does 200dmg I could just hit critical with my tomahawk. Who cares about healing when the battle is over? It’s over I needed the healing then!

~These skills should help war be a tank and deal with the Hp healing issue ~
Here’s my revisions.
Mercy stroke should be when you parry, mercy stroke does the dmg parried back and heals 50% of that. PERFECT its viable and useful. Maybe rename Flashback ~ XD
Add a skill to increase parry rate and dmg reduction from it.
Fracture from 1.0 may show up in 2.0 PVP. But it would be nice to Silence some of these mobs skills.
For ex. If I use fracture on titan’s landslide than he can’t use landslide for like 15’s secs that’s nice!

People don't seem to understand nothing about what the warrior currently does shows their skill... its showing a healers skill you're just meat puppets getting punched in the face right now.

The topic here is not WAR is bad, but its PLD being too good. Binding coil is ilvl 90; PLD can walk in with ilvl70 and tank well while WAR needs ilvl80-90. PLD's survivability needs to be scale down to the level of WAR.

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Originally Posted by Tanaya

Anyone who says WAR isn't underpowered right now doesn't know what they're talking about, but it's going to take time for SE to realize that. The best thing to do is to just deal with the imbalance until that happens. Don't combat ignorance with more ignorance.

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SE doesn't need time to realize the program design they wrote and coded. WARRIOR is working AS INTENDED. However I agree they are harder to play with than pld and by class comparison are out matched. But by design a warrior can clear all the content in game though at a very high cost by comparison to a pld party WHEN dmg mitigation is crucial to victory.

SE will realize the fans' appeal/nonappeal to the class over time. They may adjust to aswayed their base.

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Originally Posted by wlakiz

The topic here is not WAR is bad, but its PLD being too good. Binding coil is ilvl 90; PLD can walk in with ilvl70 and tank well while WAR needs ilvl80-90. PLD's survivability needs to be scale down to the level of WAR.

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I disagree with the NEED for any of pld down or warrior up. Then again it all has to do how HARD SE wants their content to be. For example diablo3 inferno pre patch was soooooo hard. No one could complete it....that didn't make "broke". That mean it was too hard for the gamer base. One correction a famous gamer completed it before the patch.



Question is does SE want to even the playing field for the tanks? If so do they want the game made overall easier to play or harder??

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Originally Posted by javid

SE doesn't need time to realize the program design they wrote and coded. WARRIOR is working AS INTENDED.

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So I guess SE intended WAR just be the inferior choice? Seems like a good design. They should also make a DPS class that caps at 150 dps, then people can yammer on about how it's so much harder to play and show's a huge amount of player skill.

Here's a reality check. As a tank damage mitigation is always cruicial to victory.

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Originally Posted by javid

SE doesn't need time to realize the program design they wrote and coded. WARRIOR is working AS INTENDED.

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So you're saying they suck at design? Because there are only two options. Either they can't design for shit, or they failed at implementing.

So I was right, se didn't intend for pld to survive the current content. Maybe we can still expect a Nerf from them