Really SE, no job balancing at 2.1?

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Originally Posted by WingsofWar

You may say its "broken", but IMO I'm pretty jealous of WAR, particularly when Wolfs Den comes out, you think anyone would want a PLD for PvP?

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Let me break it down for you.

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-PLD DPS is crap.
-Emnity? why bother..

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PLD DPS is not crap. Anyone that *thinks* it is is an idiot that doesn't know what they've got and ends up using it improperly. Just check out the math I did and you'll see: WAR has no substantive DPS advantage over PLD and *neither's* DPS is going to make much of a difference because they just don't have the DPS stats and bonuses to have a major impact.

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-Mitigation? against what if other players can totally ignore you.

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First off, PLD has a *lot* more utility than a WAR has. That utility is going to be a *massive* advantage in PvP: Shield Bash is going to be *ridiculous*. Plus, Cover.

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-Self-heals are non-existent.

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If mitigation is pointless because people are going to ignore you, why are you bringing up self-heals? You just claimed that PLD is never going to take damage because no one would ever want to attack them thanks to mitigation but then proceeded to bring up self-heals as if they were even remotely important. Strive for some consistency in your argument.

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PLD may have an easier time through the coil sure, but a skilled player on WAR doesn't scream "broken" to me.

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Whether WAR is broken depends upon how you choose to define "broken". If "broken" simply means "incapable of running content", then WAR is most definitely not broken. If "broken" means that the class is inferior in every quantifiable way, then WAR is most definitely "broken". It doesn't help that, at best, a perfectly played WAR just barely breaks even with a faceroll PLD: WAR has a crazy high skill ceiling, but it doesn't pay off at all. The only possible way you could consider WAR "fine" is if the metrics you're using for comparison are so woefully screwed up that you could justify just about anything.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Oh... that's not what I would call patch notes. The content in some patch notes had better be a looooong list full of enhancements and bug fixes. Hardly anything to QQ about yet.

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I hope i'm wrong as you say.

First off you don't have to reply like an asshole about it. If you disagree, fine. But you trying to undermind my OPINION on defending a WAR as a better class for PvP than PLD is just childish.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

PLD DPS is not crap. Anyone that *thinks* it is is an idiot that doesn't know what they've got and ends up using it improperly. Just check out the math I did and you'll see: WAR has no substantive DPS advantage over PLD and *neither's* DPS is going to make much of a difference because they just don't have the DPS stats and bonuses to have a major impact.

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some parser iv seen puts PLD roughly 60-130dps with sword oath, while iv seen WAR well on the 200s, just short of true DPS classes. Its not a big deal for PvE where your not really looking to down a mob rather take hits. But against a player, the lower DPS IMO might be a big crippling disadvantage against 4 or 6 other players. Can i be wrong? sure but im just making a statement on observations.

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First off, PLD has a *lot* more utility than a WAR has. That utility is going to be a *massive* advantage in PvP: Shield Bash is going to be *ridiculous*. Plus, Cover.

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yeah that's true, cover and shield bash are going to be good especially against melee classes. but the most troublesome teams iv encountered in other games in PvP were the ones who maximized group offensive potential, even if i had good utility.

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If mitigation is pointless because people are going to ignore you, why are you bringing up self-heals? You just claimed that PLD is never going to take damage because no one would ever want to attack them thanks to mitigation but then proceeded to bring up self-heals as if they were even remotely important. Strive for some consistency in your argument.

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When i play some team based PvP, self heals and mitigation play different phases in a pvp, well from what iv experienced anyway. 4-6 man team kills your healer/dps. Tank is left alone, tank cannot self-heal regardless of damage mitigation in a 1v4 scenario. Or a DoT virus/spell just ruins everything.

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Whether WAR is broken depends upon how you choose to define "broken". If "broken" simply means "incapable of running content", then WAR is most definitely not broken. If "broken" means that the class is inferior in every quantifiable way, then WAR is most definitely "broken". It doesn't help that, at best, a perfectly played WAR just barely breaks even with a faceroll PLD: WAR has a crazy high skill ceiling, but it doesn't pay off at all. The only possible way you could consider WAR "fine" is if the metrics you're using for comparison are so woefully screwed up that you could justify just about anything.

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im guessing this comment is to the OP, but i think broken class would be the "incapable of running content". I dont think WAR is incapable, sure it fall short IMO in many cases but so does PLD. I dont think i dare try to convince myself of finding real inferiority, i think every class in this game is inferior to each other in many ways. IE IMO i think id rather have a scholar in PvP than a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

I'm hoping they they will fix the WAR as DPS because thats what it is.

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it's not a dps, it does decent damage so you can work more leeches out of it, stack your offencive buffs, i leech tons of health myself. it also does decent damage for group hate which is is better at IMHO yet the end game content(which was ment to have crystal tower teir gear to do) isn't groups of mobs you fighting it's just one big one. so of course PLD would be better at this. btw it IS posible to do all these baddies with WAR. you jsut gotta have the i 90 gear and be skilled. PLD is derpy. don't dis WAR because PLD is a faceroll job.

People tend to forget that different jobs do different amounts of DPS vs. different encounters. Some encounters favor single target DPS, some favor AOE. Sometimes there's a lot of stuff to avoid - which can lower DPS.
When people say PLD does more DPS than WAR, I always just assume they mean vs. single target (if it's even true, don't know, don't care). There's no way they're out DPSing vs. AOE. I haven't done Coil yet, but let's look at the other endgame content:

CM - Tonsssss of AOE here. If you're not MT you can AOE down the adds during boss encounters.
AK - Also tons of AOE. Not really much AOE to be done on bosses though.
WP - Only done this once so far but if I remember it's in the same boat as AK.
Praet - AOE here, but none on bosses.
Ifrit - No AOE here.
Garuda - It's nice being able to AOE the plumes here. If you position yourself properly you can hit 2 different groups of them at once.
Titan - Just unlocked this but I don't think there's any AOE here.
Like I said I haven't done Coil, but surely Coil has AOEable stuff. And Crystal Tower probably will too.
I hope people aren't underestimating AOE. I've seen groups of mobs disappear within just a few seconds of being AOEed.

Also I'm calling it: MRD will get another job called Berserker that is the pure DPS version :)

You guys realise that we're going to have PvP-only skills and that thit point is... well, pointless, right ?

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Originally Posted by Jediman

I'm hoping they they will fix the WAR as DPS because thats what it is.

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And there we have again, Paladinfanboy Nr. 99890.

Alot PLD (like you strange guy) think :" Paladin should be the one and only Tank"

BULLSHIT.

Read ALL the Abilities from warrior, then you see, he has alot Tank Abilites with Enmity on it. so, pls do everyone a favor, and just shut up.

Warrior is a Tank, the gab between Warrior and Paladin is big, way to big. but still, he IS a Tank.

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Originally Posted by WingsofWar

some parser iv seen puts PLD roughly 60-130dps with sword oath, while iv seen WAR well on the 200s, just short of true DPS classes. Its not a big deal for PvE where your not really looking to down a mob rather take hits. But against a player, the lower DPS IMO might be a big crippling disadvantage against 4 or 6 other players. Can i be wrong? sure but im just making a statement on observations.

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The only reason for a PLD to do less dmg than a WAR is for that PLD to not know how to use all of the tools at its disposal. Sword Oath adds a *crapton* of damage, Fight or Flight is *disgustingly* good, and Circle of Scorn/Spirits Within make up a *substantial* portion of your total DPS. If you don't use FoF or CoS/SW like you're supposed to, a PLD is going to have terrible DPS, but that's contingent on the PLD not know how to DPS effectively. Comparing a PLD that doesn't use its tools to a WAR that *does* is an unequal comparison that will naturally favor the WAR.

PLD can tank effectively even when it's played poorly, which is why you see people pointing out the low PLD parses. Properly played a PLD will be able to do just as much as a WAR can.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

You guys realise that we're going to have PvP-only skills and that thit point is... well, pointless, right ?

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Does that mean additional skills *for* PvP , and/or skills having a different version for PvP? If they're being split how far are they willing to differentiate a skill between pvp and pve versions. If they don't want things to be significantly different for similarities sake then it would still matter.


Anyways those aren't patch notes and the future isn't set in stone. Would like to see Mercy strokes trait replaced with a Blood shower II or Enhanced Foresight II and Storm path just straight switched to 125-150% absorption.