This...

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Originally Posted by Hik0

the problem is lot of player are just lazy and want their 50 without any effort

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Question barrage, not necessarily to you only:
Do you think the majority of players are these lazy people? Do you think SE would get a wider audience by catering to them? Do you think it'd be healthy for the long-term commitment and the mentality of the community?

I'm asking this because I don't quite know the answer myself. I just would personally enjoy it more if there were actual challenges to overcome.

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Originally Posted by Hik0

the problem is lot of player are just lazy and want their 50 without any effort

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Not really. Its more a matter of that people, on the whole, actually aren't complete retards. They can figure out that Activity A which gives Reward at Fast Interval is better than Activity B which gives Reward at Slow Interval.

Most people are even smart enough to figure out that Activity A, that they can do quite leisurely and consistently for 10 Peanuts every 10 minutes, is better than Activity B, which cannot be done leisurely or consistently, though might award 100 peanuts every 100 minutes...iiiiif it can be done.

Smart does not necessarily mean lazy. And people aren't quite so stupid as some wish they were.

But no, nobody that's smart enough to figure the above sorts of things out is going to do the more inefficient/ineffective/inferior thing when there's no risk to doing the efficient/effective/superior thing.

You can't get banned or in any sort of trouble for fate zerging. Its not against any rule. You're not exploiting a glitch.

Lazy if you do? The argument could be countered, and more accurately, that you might be stupid and incapable of appreciating basic time management if you don't.

I mean, honestly, is your internet honor on the line here? Will you be named Bushido Blade Sephiroth xXx of the Intarwebz if you BRAVELY and NOBLY take the imaginary 'high road' and 'work for it'?

People with that mentality are common. They're the ones that think working harder, not working smarter, is the way to go.

Working hard has its place and time. Happy Funtime Game should not be work. Most of us don't need another job (or if we do, we don't need one that we're paying for the privilege of laboring at).

So, again, its more a matter of whether or not you're basically stupid or if you aren't. If you are, do the inferior thing. Waste your time. Pat yourself on the back for how much better you are because you made something that was tedious even more tedious.

That'll work out for ya. Keep at it.

Lack of quests drives many to go the fate party route aswell, fates should be a fun optional xp source like leves not something your stuck grinding out due to gated content/a lack of quests to do for the last half of each lvl post 35 or so.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

Question barrage, not necessarily to you only:
Do you think the majority of players are these lazy people? Do you think SE would get a wider audience by catering to them? Do you think it'd be healthy for the long-term commitment and the mentality of the community?

I'm asking this because I don't quite know the answer myself. I just would personally enjoy it more if there were actual challenges to overcome.

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I think there should be more challenges, but those challenges should be ACTUAL challenges; better/more complex fates, perhaps even combat-lite puzzle dungeons/dynamic events.

Things that rely less on mindless grind. Its entirely doable, but churning out grind content is roughly the equivalent of making bologna sandwiches and calling it 'lunch'. Yes, its technically food, just like grind content is technically content, but its garbage. Its junk. Its not healthy for anyone; its filler.

A bologna sandwich will prevent you from starving to death. Grind content will prevent you from literally having nothing to do.

But that's it.

If we're talking quality challenge, I'd love to see more of it.

If we're talking herp-derp grind, then I cannot call that challenge, as the only challenge incumbent is the challenge of tolerating it.

Which is exactly the kind of challenge this game does not need more of.

My take: Most players are not lazy. Most just aren't total, slobbering idiots and will do the most time-effective, cost-efficient activities they can reasonably do to secure advancement, irrespective of just how that manifests.

The problem is that people are NOT stupid or lazy. They figure out how to efficiently level to max and nuke all the content far more quickly than developers seem to ever expect. Its been happening so long that you'd think they'd expect it by now, but they never quite seem to. Or, at least, they never seem even vaguely prepared for it, despite it being as predictable as a sunrise.

I think people want to be engaged, but they don't want to have their time wasted. They don't want to be frustrated.

Everyone has what I call a 'grind tolerance'. Some people have more grind tolerance than others, some less. Some have high tolerance for specific sorts of grinds, none at all for others; some have none at all for any of it.

MMO developers should not be trying to include so much grind that they're taxing damn near everyone's grind tolerances. They should, if they had any business calling themselves game designers with anything resembling pride at all, be firstly and foremostly trying to make their game so damn fun that you; all of you; will want to play it.

But that's hard. It takes creativity. It's called expensive, but hey, failure's moreso. Lets ask SE how 'cheap and easy' it was to rebuild XIV here because they went with such cheap and easy dependence on grindy, boring garbage in 1.0.

The grind is not cheap. Its like a bologna sandwich. It might seem cheap and easy right now, but stuff yourself with that crap and you'll create problems for yourself that are anything but cheap and easy to resolve. And might not be resolvable at all; some damage is permanent.

So no. We're not lazy. We're just not stupid.

People who are sitting down eating cookies and playing a video game for hours on end are calling other people lazy who are sitting down eating cookies and playing video games hours on end. IRONIC!!

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Originally Posted by Zeikial

People who are sitting down eating cookies and playing a video game for hours on end are calling other people lazy who are sitting down eating cookies and playing video games hours on end. IRONIC!!

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But didn't you know that if you work super hard in an mmo, you're making up for being a worthless sack leading a pointless existence irl? It must be true for how rabid some are about their 'accomplishments' and 'achievements' and 'hard work'.

I've often cackled hysterically about it, at least. It's a game to play happy funtime crap in. Nothing more.

Still wish I had a cookie though. Maybe I'll go make some!

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Originally Posted by Hik0

the problem is lot of player are just lazy and want their 50 without any effort

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You mean mind Numbing running to these fates.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

Question barrage, not necessarily to you only:
Do you think the majority of players are these lazy people?
Do you think SE would get a wider audience by catering to them?
Do you think it'd be healthy for the long-term commitment and the mentality of the community?

I'm asking this because I don't quite know the answer myself. I just would personally enjoy it more if there were actual challenges to overcome.

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If you turn the "easy&fastXP" into harderXP you might make people who like challange happy, but those who liked it the easy way not but if you change another content that not used a lot into (or make a new one) a "challange that give good xp" both will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Hik0

If you turn the "easy&fastXP" into harderXP you might make people who like challange happy, but those who liked it the easy way not but if you change another content that not used a lot into (or make a new one) a "challange that give good xp" both will be happy.

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While I understand that quite a few would like this approach, I don't really like it. It wouldn't tackle the problem of gear/consumables irrelevance and thus indirectly the irrelevance of DoL/DoH. There needs to be a fair risk versus reward balance to not make one play style undermine the relevance of every other one. "Challenge for the sake of challenge" isn't a very good way to go IMO.

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Originally Posted by brokenserenity

Lack of quests drives many to go the fate party route aswell, fates should be a fun optional xp source like leves not something your stuck grinding out due to gated content/a lack of quests to do for the last half of each lvl post 35 or so.

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To be completely honest, I'd much prefer fates to quests. The only thing worse than running around the map and mindlessly killing things for hours on end is mindlessly running around killing things, then having to run to a damn NPC on the other side of the map. Story quests, fine. I really hate running all over the place though (but I've found that this gets better as you progress).

Edit: If anything needs a boost in exp, it's dungeons.