Reaper's avatar

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Originally Posted by Lunair

If anything, we have evidence that runs counter to this, instead, in the form of Golbez who's implied to be Azem's shard similar to the Warrior of Light, who you can fight AS a reaper, with your own avatar. While this might be a case of gameplay and story segregation, the lack of any sort of special dialogue to reference the matter makes me doubt it.

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One slight correction to this: we've never fought the Golbez that's implied to be our shard (the one we see flashbacks of in first-person, etc) - in the 6.5 dungeon, we see that he was mercy-killed by Durante during the Contramemoria. The 'Golbez' we're dealing with in 6.x is Durante, wearing Golbez's old armor and taking on his name.

That only reinforces your point, though - the OG Golbez's soul is currently sealed within a memoria crystal, so he can't possibly be our avatar.

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Originally Posted by 17cupsofcoffee

One slight correction to this: we've never fought the Golbez that's implied to be our shard (the one we see flashbacks of in first-person, etc) - in the 6.5 dungeon, we see that he was mercy-killed by Durante during the Contramemoria. The 'Golbez' we're dealing with in 6.x is Durante, wearing Golbez's old armor and taking on his name.

That only reinforces your point, though - the OG Golbez's soul is currently sealed within a memoria crystal, so he can't possibly be our avatar.

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Also, 'Golbez's flashback was first-person' is bad evidence for Golbez being an Azem shard, because there's been three first-person Echo flashbacks, and the other two are people who have the strongest differing cases to not possibly be a shard of Azem: G'raha and Elidibus.

It's also one of only two pieces of evidence for it I've ever heard; the other one is that we didn't see Golbez's head, which doesn't even make sense as evidence because the likely reason is because that'd be too much effort to bother doing (Golbez is a monster model, so he literally does not have a head under that helmet by normal circumstances), and the WoL saw their face and never reacted. So really, the case folds like wet tissue paper.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, 'Golbez's flashback was first-person' is bad evidence for Golbez being an Azem shard, because there's been three first-person Echo flashbacks, and the other two are people who have the strongest differing cases to not possibly be a shard of Azem: G'raha and Elidibus.

It's also one of only two pieces of evidence for it I've ever heard; the other one is that we didn't see Golbez's head, which doesn't even make sense as evidence because the likely reason is because that'd be too much effort to bother doing (Golbez is a monster model, so he literally does not have a head under that helmet by normal circumstances), and the WoL saw their face and never reacted. So really, the case folds like wet tissue paper.

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Right, like... I don't think it's impossible that Golbez could turn out to be an Azem shard if the writers decide to capitalize on the speculation, but I don't really buy that it was their intent when they were writing the 6.x storyline at the time. The first-person perspective seemed to be used to obscure the twist-reveal, in the same way it was used for G'raha (whether or not we all saw it coming -- in either case).

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Right, like... I don't think it's impossible that Golbez could turn out to be an Azem shard if the writers decide to capitalize on the speculation, but I don't really buy that it was their intent when they were writing the 6.x storyline at the time. The first-person perspective seemed to be used to obscure the twist-reveal, in the same way it was used for G'raha (whether or not we all saw it coming -- in either case).

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I think all three of them had the intent of obscuring identity. With Elidibus it was a little bit funkier, the intention is to completely disorient and not even giving you a perspective character is part of that, but the angle with all three is 'you don't get to see who this flashback is from'.

I suspect it's also that they just know it makes for a very striking and unusual way to frame a scene for this game; first-person hasn't lost its novelty and its uncanny nature (that isn't how the camera normally moves so it's always a bit off-putting), so they know to deploy it when it's special. None of the first-person scenes we've ever had were dull; on top of the three Echo flashbacks we also have the start of In From the Cold, and 7.3 had a brief cut from Wuk Lamat's eyes.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think all three of them had the intent of obscuring identity. With Elidibus it was a little bit funkier, the intention is to completely disorient and not even giving you a perspective character is part of that, but the angle with all three is 'you don't get to see who this flashback is from'.

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I didn't comment on Elidibus just because I couldn't recall the scene in question lol. He certainly isn't a shard, regardless.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, 'Golbez's flashback was first-person' is bad evidence for Golbez being an Azem shard, because there's been three first-person Echo flashbacks, and the other two are people who have the strongest differing cases to not possibly be a shard of Azem: G'raha and Elidibus.

It's also one of only two pieces of evidence for it I've ever heard; the other one is that we didn't see Golbez's head, which doesn't even make sense as evidence because the likely reason is because that'd be too much effort to bother doing (Golbez is a monster model, so he literally does not have a head under that helmet by normal circumstances), and the WoL saw their face and never reacted. So really, the case folds like wet tissue paper.

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There are a lot of irregularities regarding Contramemoria Era (CE) Golbez that could be considered context clues beyond his face never being seen and the first person cutscene. Granted it rests in the "unproven and unprovable" category, but the idea is clearly something the writers are suggesting.

1. First-Person Cutscene
   -First person cutscenes are extremely unusual in this game, and are either critically important to the plot or used for humor. There is nothing humorous about any cutscene with CE Golbez.
2. Face Not Shown
   -CE Golbez's face is not revealed. Using a monster rig means he's a unique model (both Varis and Zenos also use unique "monster" rigs instead of using standard character creator models), but it is still highly unusual to not have revealed his face when they could have done so. The choice not to do so may have been to preserve the surprise that the Golbez we know in the present is Durante assuming his identity, but it was a transparent "surprise" that makes little sense to try and spring on people unless you're going for a different angle.
3. Unvoiced
   -Similar to his face not being shown, this could have been done to try and conceal present day Golbez's true identity as Durante but it's still very odd considering he is unvoiced in (first person) cutscenes where other characters are, and anyone with a good ear (in EN at least) could tell you that Durante and present-day Golbez have the same voice (suggesting they are the same person). Maybe it's not as obvious in other languages, but one can't help but conclude this was an intentional stylistic choice for a reason.
4. Memoria Crystal Resonance
   -The Warrior of Light is able to achieve some form of resonance with CE Golbez's memoria crystal, first viewing their memories in first-person and then reliving them (again in first person) as the latter 2/3 of the Lunar Subterrane dungeon. This phenomenon is not observed with any other memoria crystal.
5. Similar Role
   -The Warrior of Light and CE Golbez share similar roles as hope bringers who inspire others to do good, and their death signals an irrevocable turn for the worse leading to an apocalypse (the WoL in the 8UC timeline, CE Golbez in the Contramemoria).

Coincidence? Perhaps, but there's too many coincidences to just write it off as nothing but. It's not definitively answered, but like the EE3 saying the Reaper Avatar might be their Thirteenth reflection it's deliberately left ambiguous.

EDIT
Apropos of nothing, can we get Golbez's armor as a cash shop outfit? We've gotten pretty much every important NPC from Dawntrail and loads of IX cosplay gear (both in-game and as cash shop outfits). Give the dudes some fashion choices after Garnet, Beatrix, and Endless / Simulant Sphene got theirs added.

Plus Real Sphene and Zero's PLD gear being added, just not available yet.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

-CE Golbez's face is not revealed. Using a monster rig means he's a unique model (both Varis and Zenos also use unique "monster" rigs instead of using standard character creator models), but it is still highly unusual to not have revealed his face when they could have done so. The choice not to do so may have been to preserve the surprise that the Golbez we know in the present is Durante assuming his identity, but it was a transparent "surprise" that makes little sense to try and spring on people unless you're going for a different angle.

[...]

EDIT
Apropos of nothing, can we get Golbez's armor as a cash shop outfit? We've gotten pretty much every important NPC from Dawntrail and loads of IX cosplay gear (both in-game and as cash shop outfits). Give the dudes some fashion choices after Garnet, Beatrix, and Endless / Simulant Sphene got theirs added.

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I mean, one of these kinda defeats the other. Getting technical, Golbez is a reused King Thordan; that means that, rigging-wise, there isn't a face in there and you'd have to basically make a whole new model to put one on. This is what the Blue Mage quests essentially did when they used the same model for Siegfried, but with more transparency; 'unmasked' Seigfried is just a regular roegadyn and we went in knowing that. While I can't claim to know the entire developmental process that went into that scene after the Lunar Subterrane, I'm sure 'it's mroe effort than it's worth for us to make Golbez a face' was a factor.

Similarly, Golbez's armor can't just be given to a player in the way that Sphene's could, becuase it's literally not built to fit a player model in there; you'd basically have to make a whole new armor for that. I honestly agree that we need more male-coded 'premium' outfits, but that is the struggle for a lot of them: there's a lot of male characters that just aren't built for that. The two I can immediately think of that we haven't gotten are Raubahn and Emet, and... you know what, why haven't we got their outfits? Raubahn's a normal highlander (albeit these days he has the 'left arm' scale zeroed out), and Emet's only morally and psychologically a monster.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Memoria Crystal Resonance
-The Warrior of Light is able to achieve some form of resonance with CE Golbez's memoria crystal, first viewing their memories in first-person and then reliving them (again in first person) as the latter 2/3 of the Lunar Subterrane dungeon. This phenomenon is not observed with any other memoria crystal.

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The Warrior of Light had an Echo flashback at first, something that has never required "resonance" (they also saw an Echo flashback of G'raha Tia in first person) and the resonance affected the entire party, not just the Warrior of Light—if you go in with allied NPCs they also react to the memoria.

I just don't personally see anything there.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I mean, one of these kinda defeats the other. Getting technical, Golbez is a reused King Thordan; that means that, rigging-wise, there isn't a face in there and you'd have to basically make a whole new model to put one on. This is what the Blue Mage quests essentially did when they used the same model for Siegfried, but with more transparency; 'unmasked' Seigfried is just a regular roegadyn and we went in knowing that. While I can't claim to know the entire developmental process that went into that scene after the Lunar Subterrane, I'm sure 'it's mroe effort than it's worth for us to make Golbez a face' was a factor.

Similarly, Golbez's armor can't just be given to a player in the way that Sphene's could, becuase it's literally not built to fit a player model in there; you'd basically have to make a whole new armor for that. I honestly agree that we need more male-coded 'premium' outfits, but that is the struggle for a lot of them: there's a lot of male characters that just aren't built for that. The two I can immediately think of that we haven't gotten are Raubahn and Emet, and... you know what, why haven't we got their outfits? Raubahn's a normal highlander (albeit these days he has the 'left arm' scale zeroed out), and Emet's only morally and psychologically a monster.

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Valid point, and I will concede that men's fashion is harder to actually design.

That said, regarding unhelmeted Golbez if they have the resources to completely reskin King Thordan's rigging an alternate one with an actual head / face would be a pretty small ask.

Regarding premium outfits, eh... they made both Garnet's and Beatrix's from whole cloth, so to speak, so even if they had to do the same for something like Golbez's armor it's not out of the question. I... don't suppose it would sell quite as well, or at least not be quite as profitable (it's a much more ornate outfit, being based on Amano art and all, and likely has a more limited appeal).

Apropos of nothing, but Raubahn actually does use a unique model, as anyone who has run Castrum Abania and/or the Ala Mhigo dungeon with him in a Trust party can attest (that one does use a modified standard model, which makes him look shorter and less muscular). So they could release his outfit modified to still have the left arm, but again if it's not worth the cost of production...

Eh, who knows. Maybe if Evercold is "the VII expansion" we'll get some outfits from that game; I'd be happy with Barret's.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

The Warrior of Light had an Echo flashback at first, something that has never required "resonance" (they also saw an Echo flashback of G'raha Tia in first person) and the resonance affected the entire party, not just the Warrior of Light—if you go in with allied NPCs they also react to the memoria.

I just don't personally see anything there.

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I forgot the first one was an Echo flashback, but regardless, it doesn't change the fact CE Golbez's memoria crystal does things no other memoria crystal does, and only seems to do those things in our presence.

There's just too many coincidences piled up for me to ignore it as a possibility, which is probably the intent; it's fine if other people disagree.

I could never buy the Golbez theory. We aren't the shard of Hermes but we can access Hermes experience just fine. We the only one who can access memories because we have the echo and the others don't. No one in the party is reacting "what? How can that be? Is that derplander?! No way!!" with the face reveal. And Yoshida directed that he doesn't want our players to be associated with non-hero stuff. Ardbert was misguided, but unlike Golbez, he didn't torture a dragon for thousands of years