Please make future Dungeons LESS like hallways...

I think the playerbase would just turn them into hallways anyway. People already pull wall to wall to do a dungeon faster. They also tend to skip most adds in ARR dungeons as well if they can. So why would SE focus on making interesting non hallway dungeons when the playerbase would just make them hallways dungeons anyway?

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I think the playerbase would just turn them into hallways anyway. People already pull wall to wall to do a dungeon faster. They also tend to skip most adds in ARR dungeons as well if they can. So why would SE focus on making interesting non hallway dungeons when the playerbase would just make them hallways dungeons anyway?

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I'm saying they shouldn't design them just like hallways. This obviously isn't going to work if they just slap on the same design that they've been doing and yes people will do the path of least resistance.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I think the playerbase would just turn them into hallways anyway. People already pull wall to wall to do a dungeon faster. They also tend to skip most adds in ARR dungeons as well if they can. So why would SE focus on making interesting non hallway dungeons when the playerbase would just make them hallways dungeons anyway?

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The thing that’s always forgotten in this argument is that square never put anything remotely interesting in the side rooms. Even in ARR the random pink dungeon gear was useless even if you got good rolls on the random substats

You can’t make doing side content utterly pointless then go “why aren’t people doing side content”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The thing that’s always forgotten in this argument is that square never put anything remotely interesting in the side rooms. Even in ARR the random pink dungeon gear was useless even if you got good rolls on the random substats

You can’t make doing side content utterly pointless then go “why aren’t people doing side content”

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But see, that's where there could be improvements. Since dungeon gear seems to be rarely used anymore these days and even more so once that level's dungeon was far lower than your current level, if they put either glamour rewards or consumables or even housing items, that could certainly be seen as more interesting than gear no one could use, or at the very least make dyable dungeon gear for glamour purposes. If there's materia, have it always scale to whatever the player's ilvl is, or opt for the current highest level stuff. The whole point of my post is that we could be getting dungeons that are more worthwhile/interesting in a variety of ways that aren't being tapped right now. By making side content with a point, then it's no longer pointless. I don't know why people keep limiting themselves to imagining what's already there; what I'm trying to prod is for them to think more outside the box.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

But see, that's where there could be improvements.

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Yes but it's CBU3's motto to abandon things if it doesn't work, not try to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

But see, that's where there could be improvements. Since dungeon gear seems to be rarely used anymore these days and even more so once that level's dungeon was far lower than your current level, if they put either glamour rewards or consumables or even housing items, that could certainly be seen as more interesting than gear no one could use, or at the very least make dyable dungeon gear for glamour purposes. If there's materia, have it always scale to whatever the player's ilvl is, or opt for the current highest level stuff. The whole point of my post is that we could be getting dungeons that are more worthwhile/interesting in a variety of ways that aren't being tapped right now. By making side content with a point, then it's no longer pointless. I don't know why people keep limiting themselves to imagining what's already there; what I'm trying to prod is for them to think more outside the box.

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I’m agreeing with you

I’m saying it’s a flaw in the argument that dungeons must be hallways because people will make them hallways otherwise

New dungeon layouts don't even need to be the most innovative thing in the world. Why can't we have a dungeon with two sides that must be cleared in any order to then access the final boss a la Labyrinth of the Ancients? This could even make the trusts argue which side to go first.

They could also design a dungeon with three different areas to go to and the final boss being the last one you tackle with slightly improved or changed abilities.

And these ideas don't need to apply to just normal dungeons but Criterion, too.

A lot of people say this but we have branching paths in Sastasha and Dzemael and nobody cares for them. Ultimately, dungeons aren't a hallway because they change direction, they are just making sure that casual players don't get lost.

There is an issue generally where SE places huge value on invisible walls to the point of them being annoying though. If you played Brayflox before the changes, then you know what I mean - you could run all over the map and now they restricted it so you can't run into the water area. This same issue is annoying in ARR before you unlock flying - you can't take shortcuts.

They recently explained how their QA process consumes vast resources running against invisible walls and patching up any gaps. They spend that much time and money on these invisible walls that it does, in fact, make everything feel like a hallway that you can't deviate from.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

But see, that's where there could be improvements. Since dungeon gear seems to be rarely used anymore these days and even more so once that level's dungeon was far lower than your current level, if they put either glamour rewards or consumables or even housing items, that could certainly be seen as more interesting than gear no one could use, or at the very least make dyable dungeon gear for glamour purposes. If there's materia, have it always scale to whatever the player's ilvl is, or opt for the current highest level stuff. The whole point of my post is that we could be getting dungeons that are more worthwhile/interesting in a variety of ways that aren't being tapped right now. By making side content with a point, then it's no longer pointless. I don't know why people keep limiting themselves to imagining what's already there; what I'm trying to prod is for them to think more outside the box.

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One idea would be to put treasure coffers like in OC out of the way that can contain everything.

The problem though is how to keep that whole thing interesting in the long-term.
At some point, players will simply rush to the exit, even if there are interesting things on the side.
The biggest problem is that the players are simply impatient (just look how many prefer crystal tower).

If we slow a dungeon down artificially, we get the old Toto-Rak experience. If we give options, we simply get the rushing strategy.

I am all for more interesting and open dungeons but tbh an incentive only does so much.
What needs to change is the player mindset as well.
I would actually firsts start with more interesting trash mobs and better job design as a baseline to engage players more and from that work to improve dungeon design.

Hot take but I think if tank survivability is cut down drastically then wall to wall pulls would become less often already...

I remember in other MMO's when you can clip through the walls and walk on the sky box to drop on the final boss. It was kind of fun to break the dungeon with stealth around things and see how much of the dungeon you can skip. If people are having a hard time with difficulty make it you can just do the last boss, but they also have all the mechanics of the other bosses on top of it if you don't kill them first. Have it beat the breaks off the best players and make it a choice to beat the sub bosses so you can weaken it to a point where it is easier for your party's ability. Make it so if you wipe on the last boss and did not beat the sub bosses, you can't try again without defeating a sub boss first. That way, you can change the difficulty to what you can handle.