I think Dark Knight and Gunbreaker losing APM is a shame

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

Stormblood was the death of DRK, y'all just didn't bury it till ShadowBringers... oh look 2 generic attacks and a gauge (that are a single target / aoe clone of each other, that should be off the gcd...) at the cost of everything that made the class unique, but dont worry, warriors got to do as much damage as dragoons for 2 tiers.

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I tend to disagree. While the MP maintenance for Darkside upkeep and the parry proc gameplay was cut out (on top of losing Scourge and Delirium as a combo... should've kept that tbh), many of the things that gave DRK unique identity remained intact in Stormblood.

Rapid MP generation and spending while avoiding bottoming out or overcapping, Blood management in increments of 1, 3, 4, 10 and 50 from various sources with a significant spender in Delirium every 80s. Bloodweapon being the speed buff of dreams and with Delirium it had 47.5% uptime (38/80 seconds), giving it the speed tank identity as well. Then while slightly changed, you still had a variety of offensive actions to enhance with Dark Arts, some providing extra effects like a burst of enmity on Powerslash, Plunge and Dark Passenger (also Blind on DADP) and lifesteal on Abyssal Drain. And with TBN going into 50 blood you had a cool retaliation independent of enmity with Bloodspiller or a burst of blood to manage for Delirium (which returned 1x TBN worth of MP on use).

Overall the theme was threefold for StB DRK:
- speed tank from haste buffs
- enhancer tank via Dark Arts
- high resource generating + spending tank

Which was all lost in 5.0+.

I disagree

I dont mind apm, but when the apm is way too high on specific timings (sometimes its about 80 apm on drk) it's just not fun, it doesn't add anything

I would rather have more apm with a linear distribution, than less apm with high peaks during bursts for example

I'm pretty sure with these changes Dark Knight is going to have the lowest APM in the 1m burst.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I'm pretty sure with these changes Dark Knight is going to have the lowest APM in the 1m burst.

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Lowest APM of all the tanks in general in DT.
I don't know why anyone would play the job in DT lol
APM is the entire reason people played it in EW.
Being lower APM than the axe clown is just too much. But hey, Xenos liked the changes.

GNB losing 2 damage ogcds during brust windows is good, actually. Not having weave space for defensives during 2m windows, which also made it hard to move due to the gapcloser effect fucking sucked hard in criterion. It's still hitting plenty of ogcds outside of it thanks to continuation anyway so it's not like the overall feel of the class is changing.

People complained incessantly about DRK and GNB openers being too busy, those players got exactly what they wanted. Personally I never had any issues with gapclosers dealing damage and was more than okay with all tanks keeping them that way but I knew they would be changed due to the massive amount of complaints. I am at least glad that WAR and PLD got to keep their offensive ones.

DRK and GNB being higher APM than the other two options is definitely a part of their identity and something that should be kept going forward, but I'm not sure what the devs could have done. The animations wouldn't make sense with 0 damage attached to them, so they needed to create new ones. If they wanted to make the openers less busy they could have added abilities used rotationally that CAN'T be used in the opener, something gated behind a resource maybe, but the issue with that is with how the game is so burst damage oriented people would just complain they have tools they can't use in their opener (see MNK and Phantom Rush). Then, if you could pool the resource for these hypothetical abilities to keep APM but (but again, NOT in the opener) people would just hold and use them in their re-opener and just exacerbate the issue.

Most of of the issue with job design can be laid at the feet of people that hyper obsesses over extreme optimization, because they are the only ones that care about small discrepencies that ultimately do not matter. They're the reason why we have the 2min meta, they're the reason why PLD lost Shield Swipe, DRK lost Reprisal and Low Blow procs, why Inner Release got changed to auto crit + dhit etc etc.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Lowest APM of all the tanks in general in DT.
I don't know why anyone would play the job in DT lol
APM is the entire reason people played it in EW.
Being lower APM than the axe clown is just too much. But hey, Xenos liked the changes.

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So to summarize :
we don't have the best burst window anymore
blackest night is enferior to other tank cd
Less APM than others tanks
(and won't speak about all the other stuff that is bad)

The only reason people would play this class would be for nostalgia, gpose or if the devs mess up the potency and make it the tank with the most dps at the beginning of expansion

(I really hope you are wrong about this, but i am scared to look up online data about upcoming APM on tanks, holy hell this is awful ><)

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Originally Posted by Praesul

People complained incessantly about DRK and GNB openers being too busy, those players got exactly what they wanted. Personally I never had any issues with gapclosers dealing damage and was more than okay with all tanks keeping them that way but I knew they would be changed due to the massive amount of complaints. I am at least glad that WAR and PLD got to keep their offensive ones.

DRK and GNB being higher APM than the other two options is definitely a part of their identity and something that should be kept going forward, but I'm not sure what the devs could have done. The animations wouldn't make sense with 0 damage attached to them, so they needed to create new ones. If they wanted to make the openers less busy they could have added abilities used rotationally that CAN'T be used in the opener, something gated behind a resource maybe, but the issue with that is with how the game is so burst damage oriented people would just complain they have tools they can't use in their opener (see MNK and Phantom Rush). Then, if you could pool the resource for these hypothetical abilities to keep APM but (but again, NOT in the opener) people would just hold and use them in their re-opener and just exacerbate the issue.

Most of of the issue with job design can be laid at the feet of people that hyper obsesses over extreme optimization, because they are the only ones that care about small discrepencies that ultimately do not matter. They're the reason why we have the 2min meta, they're the reason why PLD lost Shield Swipe, DRK lost Reprisal and Low Blow procs, why Inner Release got changed to auto crit + dhit etc etc.

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did you do dsr p7 ?
p12s p1 superchain 1 with 2mn burst ?
5-3 rotation on TOP ?

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

did you do dsr p7 ?
p12s p1 superchain 1 with 2mn burst ?
5-3 rotation on TOP ?

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...I have done the first two you mentioned and I am unsure what the third one is, thank you for expecting us to know what 5-3 rotation on TOP means.

And what exactly is that question even supposed to refer to here? You quoted a large block of text, what is your point?

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

...I have done the first two you mentioned and I am unsure what the third one is, thank you for expecting us to know what 5-3 rotation on TOP means.

And what exactly is that question even supposed to refer to here? You quoted a large block of text, what is your point?

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my point is that I hardly know someone that enjoy drk busy burst, without using "tools" to triple weav easily

and if you're a drk you should know what 5-3 means (if you dont play casually the job)