SMN Rework/Update Pitch

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

(Snipped down both quotes for character limitations.)

So I get what you two are saying, and it's not entirely wrong, but it needs to be both. Whether people like to admit it or not, aesthetics and class identity are a major aspect of the game, and the latter specifically has been missing from SMN since it's addition. DoT mages are fine as their own thing, but it wasn't a "Final Fantasy Summoner", and the changes the last couple xpacs have been taking steps to making it resemble what it should look like within the games current set parameters for classes. Adding the other three summons will give the class a virtually complete/rounded out identity, and from there you start talking about mechanics and how to make it work in a fun and exciting way. Personally I have some ideas like removing Phoenix and Bahamut from the core rotation, and filling their spots with Fenrir and Carbuncle, then moving Bahamut and Phoenix to a more "major summon" position that you earn via job gauge. And then you can add Alex, Odin, etc to that "major summon" list in future xpacs.

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I really don't think we can expect there to be so many summons (including Carbucle, those you mentionned add up to 12) unless you completely rework the job again. If all summons change the actions the summoner can use, each with their own unique animations for flair, that need to be adjusted for every race and gender, the amount of work that requires is enormous and it would also be near impossible to balance. Only way this would work is if the player and the summon's actions were completely independent again, or if they massively reused animation, or if all the "big summons" you mention were essentially the same except visually, and that's already an issue with solar bahamut.

It's all really a matter of choosing between more summons or having the ones we currently have do more. And honestly, as much of a fanboy for many summons as I am, it's pretty rounded to have a triad already (think pokémon starters), so adding complexity through those seems more likely to me. I could see other elemental summons being added, up to three, or new upgrades, but we need to have realistic expectations and strive for a balance between cool factor, workload and gameplay.

As much as I want to add more summons, arguably that is not what the job needs. The reason DT SMN landed so flat is not simply because Solar Bahamut is another Bahamut but that it changes so little to nothing.

The rotation is still Demi > Primal Gems x3 > Demi > primal Gems. Whether Solar is every other is immaterial because it adds nothing at all bar a different graphic.

What the job needs is a change to its core mechanic. Whether that is how gems work, or the rotations of each phase either could be good. It fundamentally needs something to build up towards. Something to manage, and more cast times. Heck at this stage I would cast off the differentiation between Demi and Gemstone Primals and have them all linger, just do different things.

If you had to build up to Solar Bahamut, it would have much more impact. But it doesn't. Your suggested change, while would shake things up a little, play into the roles basic issues: The illusion of choice. But as the impact of that choice is so minor, it leaves the job feeling stale.

I do think the rework conceptually is good. I just think that the implementation is problematic.

No job should be "braindead easy" to facilitate learning mechanics.

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Originally Posted by AlphaXXI

I really don't think we can expect there to be so many summons (including Carbucle, those you mentionned add up to 12) unless you completely rework the job again.

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My suggestion at the end with adding Fenrir/Carby + "big summons" would absolutely require a rework, but that is simply the direction I'd like to see them take the class if I had it my way, and not something I would ever actually expect to happen. However, the other three primals would not require a full rework. You're simply replacing round two of Ifrit/Garuda/Titan with them in the same sense Phoenix already replaces Bahamut, and the class would otherwise flow exactly the same for better or worse. Would it largely feel like they are just doing what Ifrit/Garuda/Titan are already doing right now? Honestly, probably, but that's really just the way the game is rn. Having different summons come in doing largely the same, but slightly different things is pretty much like how SAM has 2 diff "1,2,3" combos + a "1,2" just to get different stickers. Or BLM switching from Fire IV to Blizzard IV then back again.

Would it take a lot of time and development to implement? Yeah, just as much as they put in for Endwalker when they added the first three, but honestly my sympathy for that work is a bit low atm since this is all stuff that should have been slowly implemented 10+ years ago. The reality is they waited a long time to course correct this class, and now that they clearly are trying to there is a lot of catching up to do.

I get the arguments that some want the current ones to be fleshed out, and that is something they should do eventually, but thematically having 3 elements + 3 random finishers is not rounded out. Pokemon starters work because they make a "rock, paper, scissors" triangle, but FF has their own established 6 sided version in the elemental wheel, which only half is represented right now. In hindsight they should have started with 3, added the other 3, then worked their way up to Bahamut/Phoenix/etc, but that's not what they did. So it kinda feels like a mess atm.

That said, with the exception of Solar Bahamut feeling like a bit of a set back, I feel like SE has been making great strides in making SMN thematically how it should be within FFXIV. So I def want to give them credit there. I'm hoping that in 8.0 and beyond the class gets fully realized.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I get the arguments that some want the current ones to be fleshed out, and that is something they should do eventually, but thematically having 3 elements + 3 random finishers is not rounded out. Pokemon starters work because they make a "rock, paper, scissors" triangle, but FF has their own established 6 sided version in the elemental wheel, which only half is represented right now. In hindsight they should have started with 3, added the other 3, then worked their way up to Bahamut/Phoenix/etc, but that's not what they did. So it kinda feels like a mess atm.

That said, with the exception of Solar Bahamut feeling like a bit of a set back, I feel like SE has been making great strides in making SMN thematically how it should be within FFXIV. So I def want to give them credit there. I'm hoping that in 8.0 and beyond the class gets fully realized.

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I agree… the reveal of Solar Bahamut was disappointing to me, not so much because it’s “another Bahamut,” but because they didn’t round out our elements first, to change up the rotation building up to it. Solar Bahamut is essentially “Hydaelyn/Light,” so that’s fine, IF they’re actually building up to an elemental balance.

But for what it is now, SMN actually does feel more like a true “Final Fantasy Summoner,” just woefully incomplete at level 100, especially compared to PCT’s full elemental kit.

Honestly I think a lot of the issues stem from one, the Arcanist into SCH/SMN split, and two, the decision (whenever it was made, but I have a hunch it was before the SMN rework) to add Beastmaster. I know some people miss all the pet actions, but Summoner has not traditionally been a pet class, it’s supposed to summon things! lol Looking at all the FF6 references sneaking into Dawntrail and knowing my SMN can only summon 6 things, and not even the most logical six, is sad. And I did enjoy the whole DOT plus spread of old SMN, but that’s one of those things that was more Arcanist than SMN so I get why they took it out.

I guess to sum up, I feel like the rework was a step in the right direction, but they waited way too long and now SMN is feels like it’s fallen behind the other casters and isn’t complete. I still love the job, but it’s not where it could be or should be at level 100.

I wonder what the reception to Solar would have been if it was straight up Hydaelyn with a filter or something. Sure it'd be spoilery but they included her amano artwork in marketing material for endwalker so it's not like they really care that much. Of course it wouldn't fix the rest of the issues.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

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If what you say is correct, then what about FF10, FF11, FF12, FF13... does that mean that the representation of summoner in those games are wrong? I get that some people here hate pets. I get that.. but as this game took inspiration to the pet based summoner, it should have stayed as such and have fixed the underlying issues that made it clunky.

It is very saddening that you drew in people who are into the pet mechanics, only to flip them off.

That's something haters will never understand.

Honestly I kind of wished they had made an entirely different job for a summoner that infuses themselves with primals, call it Esper or something. I.e. the side of summons that behave more like FF6 Terra, FF14 Shiva and FF16. Then there are the other shapeshifter type characters in the series you could use for inspiration. There's a lot you could draw from, instead of this nonsense that's the most diluted possible version of the concept, where wielding the primal mostly just means your Ruin changes color.
It's not a proper pet summoner, not a proper fusion summoner, and not a proper caster summoner. So I still don't understand in what sense it's a "rEaL SumMoneR nOw".

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I'd like it if they had Leviathan, Garuda, and Titan in one set building white magic to charge up Phoenix, then Ifrit, Ramuh, and Shiva building black magic to charge up Bahamut. Idc how exactly each primal plays beyond that personally.

I'm not a fan of the concept of Solar Bahamut in general. I'd rather them just round out the primal wheel and call it a day. Tbh I don't even think I'd want more summons to be added after that either, unless they reworked how classes worked in general. Otherwise the class would get too convoluted too quick. Maybe just new skills each xpac that fleshed out the existing summons or something.

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Yeah to me Solar Bahamut feels very ast minute "let's just reshade Bahamut and add a heal to make it seem different and say we did care".

And also I agree Bahamut as opener makes no sense, it should be the finisher you charge up to. The gauge should be inversed you should have Garuda/Titan/Ifrit open by default and then after you use then you unlock Bahamut/Phoenix/AND ANOTHER NEW SUMMON since those are the big bois you should look to "earn" to use by building up damage or using the 3 gems for the 3 basic primals FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

I agree… the reveal of Solar Bahamut was disappointing to me, not so much because it’s “another Bahamut,” but because they didn’t round out our elements first, to change up the rotation building up to it. Solar Bahamut is essentially “Hydaelyn/Light,” so that’s fine, IF they’re actually building up to an elemental balance.

But for what it is now, SMN actually does feel more like a true “Final Fantasy Summoner,” just woefully incomplete at level 100, especially compared to PCT’s full elemental kit.

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I even would agree to eliminate the "phase" aspect to it (as well as the egis) and make the summons be spells, each with a different effect/range/targeting/duration and give those spells the Primal animation so it does feel like a summon in order for your rotation to not be eternal but still be able to use and see your character call more summons which is the satisfaction factor if the point is not to "clutter" the job's rotation or whatever.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Honestly I kind of wished they had made an entirely different job for a summoner that infuses themselves with primals, call it Esper or something. I.e. the side of summons that behave more like FF6 Terra, FF14 Shiva and FF16. Then there are the other shapeshifter type characters in the series you could use for inspiration. There's a lot you could draw from, instead of this nonsense that's the most diluted possible version of the concept, where wielding the primal mostly just means your Ruin changes color.
It's not a proper pet summoner, not a proper fusion summoner, and not a proper caster summoner. So I still don't understand in what sense it's a "rEaL SumMoneR nOw".

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Yeah overall it feels unfinished but with cool visuals to mask the incompleteness and the not knowing what to do with it vibe it has.