Feature Request/Suggestion - English (JP) Language option in Launcher

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Originally Posted by Telkira

stuff

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I'm not gonna get into a debate. But this just boils down to the usual statement of, "the book was better". So let's ask ourselves, why was the book better? And just because the book was better, does that mean the movie sucked? Those answers are exactly the same over any dub debate.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I'm not gonna get into a debate. But this just boils down to the usual statement of, "the book was better". So let's ask ourselves, why was the book better? And just because the book was better, does that mean the movie sucked? Those answers are exactly the same over any dub debate.

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I don't think that analogy works, but I get your point.

If you want to play with the Japanese script, just play in Japanese. They already wrote it.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

If you want to play with the Japanese script, just play in Japanese. They already wrote it.

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Players wouldn't mind having a second English language option which is simply a direct translation of the Japanese content.

Many players also believe that the Japanese script is so much better than the English localization, which is not without flaws.

Why should that experience be blockaded by a language barrier? Especially when the translation work has already been done, it just needs to be tested and implemented?

Why some people are not supportive of this is beyond me, especially when the localized option would still be there for you to enjoy.

Bumping this back up

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I've seen this already. It certainly is interesting to watch and might even justify the practice to those who prefer the localization over a proper, faithful translation.
But to those who would prefer something more in-line with the source material and have that be translated, with very little (if any) deviation or revision and a commitment to consistency above all else, it does very little to convince them.

Rather, I'd argue that it supports my position, in that it underscores just how feasible it would be to implement, assuming that their transparency here is proper.

Most of their work - especially the work that Kate and Koji-Fox are describing here - is just coming up with how they go about revising the content and then adapting it. The task of directly translating it from Japanese into English is already done. They have the materials, notes, etc. and it would just require implementation and QV work, but ironically with less in the way of steps.

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Maybe you should rewatch that localization panel, because the process that Kate and Koji-Fox describes should make it clear that there is not some "directly translated" version of the entire script that exists early in the localization process that could just be used "instead", the English translation/localization is only able to be implemented after all the revision and checks are done.

When something like an anime has separate subtitle and dubtitle/closed-caption options that's because those two scripts were written at different points and in separate processes, dubtitle scripts aren't created by directly modifying an existing subtitle script, they are two separate scripting processes that are made from scratch and translating from the source language, with the resulting differences being due to the additional considerations and objectives that translators have to take into account when creating a dub script.

FFXIV is game where they only have the time and resources to do the "dubtitle" process (for all languages not just English). The FFXIV French and German localizations are going through the same MSQ scripting processes (minus the lore name stuff English has to do) as the English localization does. If they seem more "faithful" than the English localization, that's because the personal "balance" of a what the German or French translators consider and find is simply different than the "balance" the English translators consider and find.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Players wouldn't mind having a second English language option which is simply a direct translation of the Japanese content.

Many players also believe that the Japanese script is so much better than the English localization, which is not without flaws.

Why should that experience be blockaded by a language barrier? Especially when the translation work has already been done, it just needs to be tested and implemented?

Why some people are not supportive of this is beyond me, especially when the localized option would still be there for you to enjoy.

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So learn Japanese. There are so many online resources to help you. And guess what? Immersion is the best way to learn a language, so playing FFXIV in Japanese will also help! FFXIV in Japanese doesn't even have the Ye Olde Timey dialect that the English version does.

Why is it only English speakers who have this kind of entitlement? Native Spanish speakers, Portuguese speakers, Chinese speakers outside of China, Russians, Ukrainians, speakers of every other European language besides French/German/English, Arabic speakers, Africans, etc etc etc. play this game in their second and third languages every single day.

I agree with some of OP's criticisms of the localization, especially the massive changes in actual narrative and meaning that seem to have been more common when Koji Fox was managing localization. Thankfully, things have improved since then, with translations straying less from the source material.

I don't think the answer is to create an entirely additional translation that attempts to be direct. Not only is that a massive undertaking, but in many cases there simply isn't a 1-to-1 translation because that's how complex and varied different languages are. Which is the entire reason why localization exists in the first place.

I think the optimal way forward is just to express to CBU3 and the localization team that players (however may of us are in this camp) appreciate a translation that takes as few liberties as possible. Not only has the localization team demonstrated that they are capable of moving closer to this, but it's by far the solution that you're most likely to get CBU3 to agree to.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

So learn Japanese.

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If learning a whole language were more feasible than adding a separate language option that's more in-line and faithful to the canon content, I wouldn't have made this post. What's wrong with accommodating players who like the game, its lore, characters, etc. but not the unnecessary flavor and revisionism that comes with the EN localization? That's like telling people who don't like English dubs of anime to learn Japanese because English voiceovers don't mesh well with Japanese animation and writing. JRPGs are no different.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

Why is it only English speakers who have this kind of entitlement? Native Spanish speakers, Portuguese speakers, Chinese speakers outside of China, Russians, Ukrainians, speakers of every other European language besides French/German/English, Arabic speakers, Africans, etc etc etc. play this game in their second and third languages every single day.

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I would love it if the game were translated into all of these languages! What are you talking about?
And a lot of the revisionism you see in the EN copy of the game simply isn't present in the German and French versions, which are more or less faithfully translated from the JP script, not fully but mostly, with none of the unnecessary fluff you see in the EN script.

What I want is for the EN script to be treated like the French or German scripts.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I don't think the answer is to create an entirely additional translation that attempts to be direct. Not only is that a massive undertaking, but in many cases there simply isn't a 1-to-1 translation because that's how complex and varied different languages are. Which is the entire reason why localization exists in the first place.

I think the optimal way forward is just to express to CBU3 and the localization team that players (however may of us are in this camp) appreciate a translation that takes as few liberties as possible. Not only has the localization team demonstrated that they are capable of moving closer to this, but it's by far the solution that you're most likely to get CBU3 to agree to.

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I think it's more feasible than people realize, since a lot of the work that goes into it has already been done, it just needs to be tested and implemented. There are a lot of issues with localization over translating, in that liberties are often taken where they shouldn't be which is tantamount to revisionism. FFXIV, first and foremost, is a Japanese game, written, developed, and designed for the Japanese market. There are all sorts of cultural nuances that go into that, you can't just give all the characters 'ye olde english' accents and staff English VAs and expect that to hide the fact that you're playing a JRPG.
A lot of it just doesn't flow, so the Localizers take lots of creative liberties that many players (such as myself) find unnecessary or even offensive, such as re-writing a whole character because they don't want to offend more sensitive players. That is literally censorship, and I don't trust localizers to strike a healthy balance between ensuring that the vision is faithfully carried over without allowing their own biases and prejudices to corrupt the vision.

Localization is, first and foremost, a business decision. Not an artistic one. It forces concepts like literary or artistic integrity to take a back seat to a flawed, biased perception that keeping in-line with the original vision will harm its marketability, when in reality, those who are playing it wouldn't mind because they're primarily playing it for the content itself.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Localization is, first and foremost, a business decision. Not an artistic one. It forces concepts like literary or artistic integrity to take a back seat to a flawed, biased perception that keeping in-line with the original vision will harm its marketability, when in reality, those who are playing it wouldn't mind because they're primarily playing it for the content itself.

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If I were someone at Square-Enix who had the power to change how localization was done, I'd want to see some kind of research or statistical data to back up these claims. It's all too common for an individual to hop on a forum and announce that your average customer wants X, when in fact they've just assumed that other people align with their own preferences. For change to occur, they'll need to see something that convinces them that a pivot will improve their profits. That could be research data, it could be an outpouring of support for this claim on the forums, etc. But without something that feels tangible, they're unlikely to change direction or add new features.

If I were a gambling Lalafell, I'd place my money on Square-Enix having done some due diligence on the topics of translation and localization over their many years of offering goods and services across the globe; when there's money to be made, most multi-national corporations aren't simply winging it, and localization is a long-established concept that will have a measurable track record.

Regardless, with your interest in translation and localization, I bet you'd be interested in this story: https://www.polygon.com/2019/7/18/20...remy-blaustein