Encounters aren't everything

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

[...]Sometimes people will fail. That's OK. I would rather have that, than having jobs that are designed with this view of the player base.

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^This, so much.

Something that I'll never understood is why they have an absolute aversion to player to player frictions. By that I mean, something like taking out as much nuances as possible just to reduce the amount of X players complaining about Y players doing something very specific with their chosen job.

If that's such a bane to their 'perfect vision' they might as well sell/market the game as solo game rather than an MMO. Just rip that bandage off.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I'd personally prefer simpler jobs and more complex fights. Once you get a job down, you're doing the exact same thing regardless of opponent, so they should shake up the opponents more.

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This is false. If the job is truly complex and has depth the rotation changes from fight to fight because things like uptime, killtime, buff uptime and burst phases are different, look at blm and see how there are dozens of pages worth of optimization and there is basically a entire spreadsheet for every single endgame fight depending on factors like what strat do you follow or what your build is.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I'd personally prefer simpler jobs and more complex fights. Once you get a job down, you're doing the exact same thing regardless of opponent, so they should shake up the opponents more.

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I mean, look at the current fights we have. Variation is so minimal that you can just get a fight down and do the exact same thing every weekly reclear.

I'd honestly rather have complex jobs back if the only "engaging content" they can give us is debuff vomit with very minimal variation.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

It's because of posts like this -especially that last line- nice touch there- that's some jobs have basically been so -oversimplified.. Your healers probably fell asleep.

Sometimes people will fail. That's OK. I would rather have that, than having jobs that are designed with this view of the player base.

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Yes, it is. The players capable of maintaining their 123 rotation and more, are logically realizing the rest of the playerbase cannot and are saying spend dev time and money on content that we can all enjoy.

I will continue advocating for SE to spend their money on wise development investments when there are people like you defending subpar play.

Oh "sometimes people will fail" is such a ridiculous buzz phrase meant to elicit brownie points. Reading comprehension is key in life, the post is not talking about occasional mistakes but general player skill level with their job. This isn't even touching on mechanical fluency.

The reality is everyday these people are queuing up not knowing their jobs, not fulfilling the duty of their roles and the other 3 or 7 or 23 players are forced to just deal with it because to ask for the basic decency of competency is considered bullying.

SE gets to set the rules of what they want the community to be, not you, or I. If they want this to be a game for casuals that do not have to respect the time of others, I am not going to fight that. I am going to just play with my friends.

In the meantime though, I will continue to advocate for dev dollars to be spent on things the majority of people in that community can enjoy, not just 30%.

It's realistic view of the player base. It's not elitism, the MAJORITY of players are not learning how their job works and you can be salty all you want but oversimplification is your reward. Enjoy.

Also, you don't have to take my word for it! Believe the devs who have all the data on the player base! <3 That's why everything has been dumbed down in the first place. To accommodate what people can actually handle.

This is a business first and foremost, and they want the majority of people to keep playing.

Subpar play. Is this character your main out of curiosity?

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

Yes, it is. The players capable of maintaining their 123 rotation and more, are logically realizing the rest of the playerbase cannot and are saying spend dev time and money on content that we can all enjoy.

I will continue advocating for SE to spend their money on wise development investments when there are people like you defending subpar play.

Oh "sometimes people will fail" is such a ridiculous buzz phrase meant to elicit brownie points. Reading comprehension is key in life, the post is not talking about occasional mistakes but general player skill level with their job. This isn't even touching on mechanical fluency.

The reality is everyday these people are queuing up not knowing their jobs, not fulfilling the duty of their roles and the other 3 or 7 or 23 players are forced to just deal with it because to ask for the basic decency of competency is considered bullying.

SE gets to set the rules of what they want the community to be, not you, or I. If they want this to be a game for casuals that do not have to respect the time of others, I am not going to fight that. I am going to just play with my friends.

In the meantime though, I will continue to advocate for dev dollars to be spent on things the majority of people in that community can enjoy, not just 30%.

It's realistic view of the player base. It's not elitism, the MAJORITY of players are not learning how their job works and you can be salty all you want but oversimplification is your reward. Enjoy.

Also, you don't have to take my word for it! Believe the devs who have all the data on the player base! <3 That's why everything has been dumbed down in the first place. To accommodate what people can actually handle.

This is a business first and foremost, and they want the majority of people to keep playing.

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I find it rather amusing that that you attempt to lecture people on reading comprehension when you're more concerned with your own viewpoint than with understanding other people's opinions.

If you want to throw around buzz words, "Wise development investments" from the point of view of a player is subjective. However, "sometimes people will fail" is not. Suck it up buttercup- people's general skill levels will vary and it's not as black and white as " they don't even read their toot tips". You have no idea of how many people don't read them - nor do I. Having the idea that the majority of the player base does not and does not want to is elitist without cold hard metrics to back it up. Otherwise it is based upon your own limited empirical evidence.

Finally, while I would agree that the devs are in the best positions to obtain player metrics, if you believe that "the devs" are incapable of drawing incorrect conclusions and consequently creating imperfect design decisions in this so-simple game - I have a nice bridge for sale for you:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

I wish we could have both, jobs with more complexity to master AND dynamic encounters, but I'll take the encounters for now.

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Ideally,I think the current situation would be okay if most, if not all, jobs had some sort of skill ceiling to aim for, like BLM does with their alternative lines of rotation to squeeze the best dps - you don't need that to clear content if everybody is pulling their weight, but it would be a nice goal. However, without an official way to gauge your dps performance, is hard to have fulfillment value out of that.

Also a slightly different topic, mostly aimed to healers: an extremely simplistic rotation doesn't mean they all have to be copy pasted from each other. They are the most egregious example of barebones design affecting how a job's gameplay is perceived.

This is exactly how I feel as well. My decision to continue into DT hinges on whether jobs recieve improvements to gameplay.

If not I'm willing to accept that I am not the target audience for 14 and return to WoW and GW2

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

This is false. If the job is truly complex and has depth the rotation changes from fight to fight because things like uptime, killtime, buff uptime and burst phases are different, look at blm and see how there are dozens of pages worth of optimization and there is basically a entire spreadsheet for every single endgame fight depending on factors like what strat do you follow or what your build is.

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And how often do you actually need to do any of this? I know some people enjoy optimization for the sheer sake of it (I used to play D&D 3.5, I know what number porn is like), but once you can reliably and smoothly clear a fight, how much actual point is there beyond padding your parses? If you know the fight inside out enough to get to that level of optimizing, then you've clearly already mastered it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

And how often do you actually need to do any of this? I know some people enjoy optimization for the sheer sake of it (I used to play D&D 3.5, I know what number porn is like), but once you can reliably and smoothly clear a fight, how much actual point is there beyond padding your parses? If you know the fight inside out enough to get to that level of optimizing, then you've clearly already mastered it.

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Its not about being necessary or not, its about giving the players options and encouraging a deeper interaction with the game systems. Deep jobs give more options because you can choose how far you want to go into the mastery and optimization of a fight, giving said encounter a much bigger self life and replayability regardless of its challenge. Shallow and simpler jobs can't do that, they make even the hardest of fights feel samey and repetitive (and EW is proof of that) and the moment they are taken out of those fights the whole design crumbles.

One is the equivalent of an F1 or a super car, even on a straight line they are the still fun to drive and you have options, the other is a roller coaster car, they 100% rely on the track otherwise they leave the person inside with nothing to enjoy or interact.