To YoshiP, here's what too stress-free: Healer edition

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think everyone who says "We don't need dps buttons, we just need more GCD healing so we don't need to dps!" needs to do a little bit of research into how much healing we're able to output and how much damage would have to go out per minute to remotely stress our healing kit, and also doing it in a way where shield healers aren't straight up better than pure healers.

On the other hand, if we're talking about reducing healing OGCDs to put more emphasis on using GCD heals, then why completely limit the evolution of the damage side of the kit? What are you even planning to replace the OGCD heals you want cut with? Do you want all healers to have a barebones kit where both healing and doing damage are extremely easy?

Also, people need to start reading what the healer mains are suggesting instead of immediately jumping to "You want healers to have a MNK damage kit!?", because it's getting tiresome to debunk it over and over again.

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To add onto this people also need to actually start looking at their own skill level, their experience and then comparing that to others before they comment

It’s okay to not be as good at the game (I’m nothing special myself) but too many people will play SGE in holminster while barely understanding what their buttons do then immediately decide that healing is incredibly gigabrained and that anyone who wants it to even slightly more interesting is obviously just a toxic try hard who wants to block other people from playing the game

I can’t count the amount of times I’ve tried to help someone who thinks healing is really hard only to find out they fundamentally don’t understand how their buttons work and are resistant to any change

He's said he wants to do this in the past with mob incoming damage so healers can actually heal something.

It never happened.

So I'll wait until I actually see it before I believe it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I still wish people would stop promoting this idea that healers should have a toolbox full of DPS options. They are not monks, and the one healer we do have right now, Sage, does work this way, and it's not what people wanted, apparently. And if they do too much DPS, then they will be the only option allowed in raid statics.

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Tell me you have zero idea how sage works without telling me you know how sage works.

Outside of Phlegma, Sage's DPS rotation is just like the other healers. A 30s dot and a filler spell.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Tell me you have zero idea how sage works without telling me you know how sage works.

Outside of Phlegma, Sage's DPS rotation is just like the other healers. A 30s dot and a filler spell.

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And phlegma isn’t exactly a unique buttons it’s just SGE’s fluff extra damage spell like assize, energy drain or earthly star

Depending on how much of your aetherflow you spend on energy drain SGE can have the lowest proportion of its actions not be its dot or nuke or second last to SCH

During the interviews where YoshiP talked about Shadowbringers feedback and players asking for more DPS abilities, he described what was essentially Addersting--that you would be able to apply a barrier through an attack that, when broken, would enable another attack. This works in PVP, but in PVE, the only barrier that earns Addersting are not generated from attacks, indicating this was changed before EW officially launched.

Regardless, the outcome of Addersting is truly awful. I've seen people defend it, but I cannot agree. The actual value Toxikon provides is nearly 0. It might sound like it has a nice concept to it, but what's the difference between a Sage who uses Toxikon and a Sage who doesn't? Assuming everything else is consistent, the difference is so microscopic that it has no realistic impact on the outcome of any fight.

As it stands right now, I can literally count the number of times I have to heal in a dungeon on one hand and possibly one finger if that. As a WHM, all I get to do now is DPS, I don't really get to heal because healing isn't needed and don't get me started about WAR healing... if I get a dungeon with a WAR, I know I'm not doing anything but DPS. I really want to heal; I love healing and the only time I feel like a healer anymore is when I get an ARR dungeon that is off the MSQ that was not modified.

In my opinion, I would like to see healers get all damage mitigation buffs, DPS increasing buffs and the only source of heals so no more personal self sustains. If they do that, healers should be needed much more as healers and when were not healing, were busy tossing out buffs and debuffs with DPS being a filler.

Tanks tank, healers heal and DPS DPSses. Simple logic, maybe its time to go look at other games and heck, even fantasy / isakai anime for good ideas.

Edit: I forgot to mention, please rework healer LBs, there really useless besides the LB3, most of our base spells are stronger than our LB1s or LB2s.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I still wish people would stop promoting this idea that healers should have a toolbox full of DPS options. They are not monks, and the one healer we do have right now, Sage, does work this way, and it's not what people wanted, apparently. And if they do too much DPS, then they will be the only option allowed in raid statics[...]

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OP specifically says about not needing DPS option as a full fledged red DPS like RDMs and BLM and somehow you still manage to think of a MNK? lmao

Have more dps option =/= Do more DPS. SCH is also currently the strongest healer. Do you see many statics barring the current weakest healer from joining? Gotta love the fearmongering. doublelmao

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All the healers used to have more options, but unless we're going back to class-craft, with taking skills from other jobs, that's not happening. Scholar and Summoner are now completely unrecognizable from where they started. And you still don't need half the healer toolbox for most fights. Once people know the fight, good DPS stop stepping in bad, and you, the healer, just end up topping up the tank.

Maybe healers are boring, but adding more DPS options just doesn't change anything, it just makes people gnash their teeth that you don't contribute more DPS when a knocked DPS costs more DPS than any DPS you can ever contribute to the fight. Keep the DPS alive is more valuable than trying to spam DPS, and I still see people play healers like they're a DPS.

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Have you ever step back for a moment and think why, in the past, with more complex DPS options plus Cleric Stance, people were more lenient to healers vs why today's healer are gnashing teeth for not getting off that single glare?

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Heck, go into any of the level 70/80 content with the Trust party as a healer, and see how many fights you can just sit down and watch. Your DPS as a healer, does not matter and does not speed up the fight unless the DPS can completely avoid AOE's 100% of the time, like the NPC's do. Adding more DPS options will not change that. Really what I would rather have are more DoT's than GCD DPS skills. But we keep losing them because the game can't tick more than two DoT's per player and not cover half the screen (see Eureka, and other FATE's where there's more than 8 players)

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False.

Trust NPCs damage output scales to how the player's performance. If you play badly then they will do more. If you play better, they will hit like wet noodle. In fact, healer trust duties tend to be faster because -We- get to dictate the size of the pull and get to play chicken with the trust tank's HP more reliably than the badly integrated healer AI. You have to be in a party of a clownfest to really impede your DPS as a healer. oGCD facilitates patching up without stop glaring way too effectively as of now.

The fact that as a healer in dungeon, I almost always cause 3 other players' 2 minute cooldowns get misaligned because I spend my time slapping the ground is already a proof that healer DPS does have value & matters.

Also what are you talking about? DoTs ARE one of the type of DPS GCD. If they're truly concerned about having too much buff/debuff count, then I really don't understand because at the same time they're also keeping things like GNB's Sonic Break and RPR's Death Design. For what, exactly...

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

During the interviews where YoshiP talked about Shadowbringers feedback and players asking for more DPS abilities, he described what was essentially Addersting--that you would be able to apply a barrier through an attack that, when broken, would enable another attack. This works in PVP, but in PVE, the only barrier that earns Addersting are not generated from attacks, indicating this was changed before EW officially launched.

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There is also an issue with skills requiring barrier breaking in anything above 4-man content because they can't allow double barrier for balance purposes. SGE+SGE you are fighting with each other for Addersting or SGE+SCH you override SCH shields. In both cases someone is getting pooched. That's honestly my gripe with barriers, they are mechanically flawed.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

There is also an issue with skills requiring barrier breaking in anything above 4-man content because they can't allow double barrier for balance purposes. SGE+SGE you are fighting with each other for Addersting or SGE+SCH you override SCH shields. In both cases someone is getting pooched. That's honestly my gripe with barriers, they are mechanically flawed.

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You know, one of the things I've suggested when bringing up Sage remake theorycrafts is removing Haima and Panhaima as OGCDs have having their staggered barrier effects be what Eukrasian Diagnosis and Prognosis do instead (and upgrade the animations). As it stands, it doesn't seem to be an issue for those to stack with Galvanize in terms of fight balance, so I wonder if that would actually make the barrier dynamic healthier. And something you could do in those examples is generate Addersting only when all stacks of Haima/Panhaima granted by your Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis are consumed. That could also allow Toxikon to be reworked into an OGCD like it was presumably originally intended to be (based on Alphinaud and PVP Sage), since generating Addersting consistently isn't something that can be spammed.

That said, the "issue" of barriers not stacking is something I don't really see as a real issue because barrier usage is so incredibly rare when Scholar and Sage are played right, and Sage is more than happy to let Scholar carry any necessary barrier application anyway, since the opportunity cost of a lost Kardia proc means their GCD heals are less efficient than they appear anyway, not to mention their performance hinges on their Dosis spam more than Scholar's does because Scholar has some leniency on their crit debuff to carry a part of their damage contributions.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That said, the "issue" of barriers not stacking is something I don't really see as a real issue because barrier usage is so incredibly rare when Scholar and Sage are played right, and Sage is more than happy to let Scholar carry any necessary barrier application anyway, since the opportunity cost of a lost Kardia proc means their GCD heals are less efficient than they appear anyway, not to mention their performance hinges on their Dosis spam more than Scholar's does because Scholar has some leniency on their crit debuff to carry a part of their damage contributions.

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I think one of the largest misconceptions people have about double barrier healer comps is that they have to work around each other and plan out every little detail. But anyone who actually played in those comps would know that, most of the time, the only GCD heal you'd be using in that comp would be a fully buffed crit Adlo.