A Character Death That Made Endwalker Worse [6.0 Spoilers]

This usually comes to mind for me when Zenos is mentioned.

https://i.redd.it/0awg1y2q15a81.jpg

Memery aside, I feel they picked a good way to send him off. He reached a point where he was an actual character instead of just Costco Sephiroth, which people liked, but he was also not the kind of character you could really "tame." Most of the ways of keeping him around a while longer would've required walking back a bunch of that character development. It was better to allow the character to go out on its own terms, facing the only real challenge it had ever known over the course of its life. All things end eventually, but very few are able to go out in such a magnificent blaze of glory.

I agree and disagree with points; while I get they wanted to get the whole Hydaelyn/Zodiarc arc done and be done with the Garleans as antagonists so they hacked what would have been 6.0 into a 3rd of the story and put it into Endwalker to end that story point... it did do a disservice to some things, and I do agree that it feels like there should have been more to him between that and what was in Endwalker. However, it truly is the duality of life: people will try to live life as fulfilling as possible, and some will feel like it has been, others will feel like they wanted to do more at the end of it all. Someone who perhaps gets to travel the world and see life in more places than just their hometown may find that, while they still wanted to see more they had seen enough and felt fulfilled. Others who get to do the same may feel like they wanted to more stay in one place to really feel like they've lived a life, not just a life out of suitcases.

His disappointment could be from many things, including "I won't live to duel you again like I want as you become more powerful" and the fact that, perhaps as a sheltered kid who only got a thrill out of combat (which is, in fact, in his short story in the short story book) he wanted to see if there was more to life that could get him to care more about it. Seeing the WoL destroy nihilism itself was probably the peak of that happening. Once it was over, that was it. He got his final duel, truly wished he could have done more, and was the "I don't want to live in suitcases" side of living life to our "I want to see every corner of the globe before I die." Life was fulfilled for him at that moment, but he wanted more and could not have.

Telling Meteion that yes, life is worth living is still true. How fulfilling you find your own life is on you. Maybe your purpose and what you find enough is just being alive to take care of cats. Maybe it's to have a big garden. You may want more. You may not.

That's just how life actually is.

Zenos sucks, and the fight at the end of Endwalker wasn't earned. They should've given us a choice to say "screw you! I'm leaving" and not entertain his childish act.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

They should've given us a choice to say "screw you! I'm leaving" and not entertain his childish act.

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I agree with this. But then again the reason he didn't kill any of our friends is so that it wouldn't ruin the hype of this final duel. So the duel is kinda the consolation prize for the story being shit - you kinda have to take it.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Zenos sucks, and the fight at the end of Endwalker wasn't earned. They should've given us a choice to say "screw you! I'm leaving" and not entertain his childish act.

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There was a thing you could click to leave the instance

So I did, to then learn the fight was mandatory to finish MSQ

I hate the illusion of choise

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Originally Posted by Yuella

They should've given us a choice to say "screw you! I'm leaving" and not entertain his childish act.

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It would've been interesting, especially to test the character growth he says he's gone through, but I don't know if it would've been good.

My read is that I don't think Zenos actually understands us as much as he thinks he does in that moment. He's made progress, but if you pick any dialog options that aren't hell yes I love to fight' he denies you; I don't think he would've taken no for an answer there. In that case, it probably would've been smarter to just not have the false choice in the first place; we probably would've been madder if we got the option to leave and then got But Thou Must-ed, than if we just didn't have one.

EDIT: Also he's kind of a murderous psychopath and our character knows that, so they probably realized 'okay I have to stop him here and now or else he's going to come back angry and bloodthirsty'. Could've used stating that louder if that was the intention, though.

You're under the implication that Zenos actually grew as a person. I don't really feel that's the case. Sure, he decided that he was going to help us stop the apocalypse, but it wasn't out of any love for the world. It's was because the apocalypse was more important to use than he was, so he wanted to remove that from the equation. He is to the Warrior of Light, what Joker is to the Batman; if he does something seemingly good, it's because has his own agenda. Remember; Zenos was willing to enslave to the world to imaginary gods, jumpstart the end of the world, allowed his own kingdom to be consumed with civil war, and tried to kill our friends in our own body just so we would pay attention to him. He would never find redemption because he enjoyed being the monsters.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

FFXIV has a habit of killing off antagonists who more often than not are the way they are purely due to being isolated and/ or horribly traumatised. They frequently like to bleat about about how "you can overcome any adversity so long as you have friends!", but the darker underside of that is the unspoken implication that life just isn't worth living if you aren't lucky enough to find the right support network, and it winds up with the villains being more or less just a case of "well, sucks to be you lol." It's pretty awful, and why Endwalker's message fell especially flat for me. I don't think SE really thought it through, and I know quite a few people who had suffered with personal issues really plummeted for a spell after finishing the MSQ as a result, which it doesn't surprise me at all.

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I actually feel that's a very good message, all things considered. I've know people in real life who were victims of isolation and trauma but used their past as an excuse to be toxic and manipulative to other people. They would willingly, even eagerly, continue the cycle of abuse and kept you locked in it because they preyed upon your own insecurities. When you finally broke free from them, you absolutely felt pity because it wasn't entirely their fault for being the way they were... But you'd still warn others to not get involved with them because their response to pain was to hurt other people and used shared trauma to keep people under their spell.

Sad hurt people can sometimes just need love. But other times sad hurt people just want to hurt other people and refuse to actually accept any compassion given to them. It's tragic, sure, but that doesn't excuse their behavior.

Zenos had to die, so that we can have a Burger / Tacco eating scene in the next Expansion. Right now I don't feel Dawntrail. My Hype lays between 0-1% after I saw Las Vegas & London Fanfest Videos + both Trailers.
The Story will be boring since Yoshi said it will be a single Expansion. New Job looks boring, the new Places feels boring. I don't care about the Mamool Ja or their King whatever. We will be with the same 0815 boring Scions ... except Krile joins us and I can't stand her, same for the Twins and Graha Tia. The rest will be like always, New Dungeons, Raids, Gear, Tribes. The new Frontline Map will be Borderland Ruins with the same Playstyle like the 2000 Points Map, which is no longer PvP, more like camp at Crystals and get Points, the moment a Team has 200 Points more as both other Teams it is Game over.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Zenos sucks, and the fight at the end of Endwalker wasn't earned. They should've given us a choice to say "screw you! I'm leaving" and not entertain his childish act.

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Many in this forum like to go with the Zenos as foil explanation, but for the reason you state above, he isn't. The problem with foils is one of them has to realize they similar and then choose a different path.

This means the WOL has to walk away from the fight with Zenos to expect any significant character change in themselves and spur the change in Zenos too. It was a wasted opportunity. Zenos should have just died in Stormblood.