Samurai Double Dot?

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I think maybe a dot kenki ability would be interesting since kenki is currently reduced to shinten spam. They could go with adding a whole new button(could make the job too bloated), or just make using higanbana transform the shinten button into a different ability if weaved directly after.

Then we'd have to make sure to have kenki for higanbana and it wouldn't really add busywork since it'd always be applied alongside higanbana. Maybe even make it cost 50 kenki to make kenki management more meaningful. Too easy to cap out on kenki as is and I think that's the part of the job that needs the most attention currently.

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Hmm... interesting idea... as for kenki, shinten spam for me is not a big deal, it's the perfect oGCD when my GCDs are on CD and to be honest, I don't think I have enough kenki at the moment as I hardly cap kenki since i use it as soon as it reaches to 25 or 30 haha but yeah kaeshi: higanbana is never used haha.

Assuming SE intended for Kaeshi: Higanbana to be used in 2 target situations, then an idea I'd throw in for it would be this. Make Kaeshi: Higanbana deal more initial potency(the initial hit not the DoT). Then when Kaeshi: Higanbana goes off, whichever other target was hit with the normal Higanbana also takes that same amount of initial damage. Just enough damage that it's worth more than doing normal Higanbana twice and opting for Kaeshi: Setsugekka instead.

Kaeshi: Higanbana exists because three iaijutsu options exist, depending sen count, and Tsubame-gaeshi is intended as a follow-up to iaijutsu. That is all. Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful. Taking the example of healers, WHM has Cure 1 as Conjurer, and it's never useful as soon as Cure 2 is added to the kit, which again is not as useful as Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton as soon as they become available. Some skills exist to only be "traps" for people who don't understand a class, or use it in situations where they don't need to understand the class.

As for why Kaeshi:Higanbana is not useful, it comes down to resource generation opportunity cost for overall potency output. If I need to double dot something, like add phase in UCoB or DSR, it is less of a potency loss to generate (one sticker-use Higanbana)x2, than to waste a Tsubame on a second dot. Can this be fixed to make Kaeshi: Higanbana "useful"? I don't think it can with the current samurai kit and sen generation, unless they absolutely gut Kaeshi: Setsugekka's potency, which in turn affects every other situation where you use that skill instead, or make the sen generation opportunity cost much higher, which I don't see happening without ruining samurai's kit entirely --- like disallowing the same sen to be generated back-to-back, like PvP ninja's ninjutsu skills, which would absolutely destroy sam's PvE kit by at least breaking Meikyo, if not demanding changes kit-wide just to make this one niche case warrant utility.

I also think this is a non-issue, because nothing really prevents you from using Kaeshi: Higanbana, unless you actually care about situations where you have to play at least somewhat optimally, *and* have two targets --- which makes my UCoB example above meaningless since that fight has been cleared with 100+ deaths, so using Kaeshi: Higanbana once in a single phase is a not going to ruin your chances of clearing that fight.

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful.

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This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

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I can see that reading is not your strong point, so may be you want to request someone to read what I wrote in its entirety and recite it back to you?

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

I can see that reading is not your strong point, so may be you want to request someone to read what I wrote in its entirety and recite it back to you?

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Actually spent a good time trying to figure what the point of that post was. That wall of text boiled down to "Here's a use in UCOB except actually no, it's still worthless." Try working on your communication skills if you meant to say something else.

I think why Kaeshi: Higanbana is currently a trap is one of because SE doesn't know it's just better to do normal Higanbana twice, they can't think of their own solution to make it a gain, or they can't really be bothered to think of something to make it a gain. I personally think Kaeshi: Higanbana should be adjusted to be a gain on 2 targets because I also think there's no downside to it. Unless there will never be a scenario where SAMs need to Higanbana 2 different targets in a future Savage/Ultimate content. In that case I don't think they should be bothered to adjust Kaeshi: Higanbana.

Probably the most you're going to get from an instantly repeated DoT via Kaeshi: Higanbana is two-target cleave, much like the best that could be had from Kaeshi: Tenka Goken.

Even then, though, you'd essentially need to have the CD of Tsubame Gaeshi vary with Sen consumed (e.g., 20s per Sen), so that the mere 2 GCDs spared of Kaeshi: Higan and 4-5 GCDs of Kaeshi: Tenka could actually compete, if only situationally.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

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But the thing is he's not wrong here. Hyoton has been in the game since the very begining when ninja was added because there needed to be a two-mudra skill where the second mudra was Jin. It was only niche usable in PvP back in the day when being able to bind other players was useful, but in any real content it was always a DPS loss to use Hyoton over Raiton. Similarly now if on monk under perfect balance, I do two opo opo form ability and one coerl ability, I get celestial revolution as my blitz, which is always a DPS loss over having used rising phoenix or elixir field.

Square had to program something in to occur for both these scenarios, but not every outcome needs to be always usable or a good skill to use. Some are just there because they have to be in order not to soft lock a job if those skills are attempted to be used. Tsubame Geshi had to have an outcome programmed for every possible use case if the trigger for making it available was first using iajutsu, and doesn't mean that programmed outcome needs to always be something good or viable, but just that something had to sit in the code to be executed when that trigger is met.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Square had to program something in to occur for both these scenarios, but not every outcome needs to be always usable or a good skill to use. Some are just there because they have to be in order not to soft lock a job if those skills are attempted to be used. Tsubame Geshi had to have an outcome programmed for every possible use case if the trigger for making it available was first using iajutsu, and doesn't mean that programmed outcome needs to always be something good or viable, but just that something had to sit in the code to be executed when that trigger is met.

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Well, no.

From a completeness standpoint and a simplicity standpoint, yes, that case need to be handled and the most pattern-adherent way to do that is to include Kaeshi:Higanbana even though it's never worth using over Kaeshi:Setsugekka. However, if they wanted to they could remove the trap by simply programming Tsubame Gaeshi to ignore Higanbana so that it only becomes Kaeshi:Setsugekka or Kaeshi:Goken.