I was unclear. I don't know what you mean about opposites but I meant both the gameplay issues and the story issues in the game ultimately start with the executive decisions of Naoki Yoshida. The same guy is responsible for formulaic gameplay and a storytelling style that I dislike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisi
It's hard to back up posts with citations when I'm talking about things from years passed, from memory, not a recent interview. Some people here probably remember what I was referring to. I will go down the Google rabbit hole a bit though and add a link if it doesn't take too long to find.
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09-08-2023, 10:13 AMRufalus
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09-08-2023, 10:21 AMEisiYou should, this would be a massive statement by Yoshi-P and if it ends up just being: "Yo our writers should feel free to not leave the world static out of some false humility before Oda-san's work" or something like that, that would be pretty embarrassing! That's why I'd like the actual quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
What I meant by opposites is that you say that on the one hand Yoshi is encouraging radical disregard of a set framework while on the other he supports a repetitive formula which doesn't allow for innovation. You might be able to square that circle tho, maybe he employs some sort of twisted logic! -
09-08-2023, 10:44 AMRufalusYeah this is hard to explain. The story is very consistent in its pacing, use of plot devices and invincible heroes. I'm not trying to say that makes it radically innovative in a way that could be related to gameplay innovation. Just saying like these two entirely separate things that I perceive as problems share a common reason for being, it's Yoshi/CBU3 style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisi
The Yoshida quote that I can't find is just something about story > lore, where he said the writers should move forwards with whatever story they want to tell, even if exiting lore cannot support it. The writers work with the lore master to introduce new lore for their story. It's not exactly the same as me saying the Scions are bulldozing the old lore. I guess what I'm saying is they aren't working inside a set of narrative limitations, but I like some limitations to keep things grounded. -
09-08-2023, 10:49 AMCleretic
Yeah, that's not really what's going on and I thinks tems from a radical and uncharitable memory of what actually happens.
It's been mentioned by the writers in interviews (that sadly I haven't bookmarked), but FFXIV isn't written from some secret grand plan that's always had clues to it. Instead, the writers are making what works for the story they're telling, and then going back and finding lore that already exists that helps that new story feel like it's part of the world that already exists. For example, let's talk about some Endwalker side content and put together what that process might've looked like there:
- Anden: Well we want something that explores the male viera of the First and/or Il Mheg. As it happens, we do have that heavily characterized leafman from the pixie tribe quests.
- Eureka Orthos: We want an Allagan-themed deep dungeon. Well, there's been Noah sitting around for years, and also the seeds of the original Allagan Eureka dating back to even A Realm Reborn.
- Sil'dih Subterrane: Let's do a variant dungeon focused around the history of Ul'dah. You know what, ARR Hildibrand provided us the perfect backdrop!
- Mount Rokkon: Okay, another variant dungeon, this time exploring Hingan spirituality. We've got a lot of pieces of that lying around since Stormblood, we basically just need someone to pull it together, and hey, we've also got a total weeb of an NPC who'd be a perfect tour guide!
- Pandaemonium: Look, we have to do something in the Ancient world, that's too big a canvas not to use. So let's fix all that incoherent rambling Lahabrea did back in ARR!
The Endwalker role quests are also a perfect example, and REALLY don't need to be elaborated on.
None of this is 'Yoshida style', it's basically how most long-term serialized storytelling works, it's just that most people writing those stories don't say it until long after the fact; superhero comics have been stated to be written like this a few times. I think FFXIV is just more open about this because they were basically forced into it; the difference between the 1.0 and ARR team is huge overall, and on the writing team the only person remaining is Banri Oda. They already had to throw out whatever ongoing story 1.0 had and make something out of what was left; there's been skeletons of future plans since then, but a bulk of individual stories come from wanting to explore something new, and then linking it to something old. Basically, they've got a formalized and publicized process for the stuff that other stories like them do all the time in a more ad hoc way.
One more thing worth saying here: the writing process involves several lore checks involving people who are dedicated Lore Experts; Banri Oda's one of them. (One of the others is Kathryn Cwynar, the English localization lead.) So it's not like someone can just go completely off the reservation and declare that actually primals are clones made from alien data in a hijacked supercomputer hidden under the ocean; there's people making sure all this stuff makes sense. -
09-08-2023, 11:06 AMEisi
All these examples are also introducing new lore and expand on the history of the world in addition to the current plot.
What interests me about the tempering cure is how much of a history of research had already existed prior to our solving the riddle so to speak, cracking the nut so to speak, breaking the dam! I mean every one of those singular events like the invention of penicillin or Darwin's Origin of Species or whatever, fall of the Berlin wall, they all feel pretty big like a paradigm shift but there's always a long history, an accumulation of individual events that made them possible. And I guess with the Tempring cure it felt pretty isolated, not like we stand on the shoulders of giants and now managed to finish someone else's work but like
Wait
Wasn't there this Allagan dude who literally found the solution thousands of years ago and we rediscovered that lore in the game? I mean it sounds like an asspull, but it was pretty clever of our heroes to check the archives and it wasn't exactly easy, wasn't there like this Artificial Intelligence device involved by the Garlond Ironworks that had to decipher some code that prevented access or something? I mean it does make sense we could make it, plus we had a catboy with the blood of the royal family. I still feel there should have been some more recent attempts to solve this issue tho. It did feel like a riddle suspiciously suited for exactly our set of talents if you catch my drift. -
09-08-2023, 11:28 AMRufalus
I'd like the heroes to react to things more often than being the cause of historic change themselves. Some kind of event causes the floodgates to open, some mysterious entities alien to the Source arrive and that messes with a lot of things that used to be impossible in past eras. As a catch-all for the frequent change the writers want so we don't need the Scions to keep coming up with major scientific breakthroughs that work so perfectly, one patch after first spitballing the theory. I don't like our guys to guiding the fate of the whole star.
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09-08-2023, 11:33 AMClereticMostly, yes. Owen hadn't 'found the solution' so much as theorized one; he knew what the problem was and what the solution might look like, but Amon cut funding before he got any further. This gave the Scions the information to get that little way further, but if we're completely honest and objective Owen should get most of the credit here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisi
That's a perfect example of how they work with this sort of thing: they pick up on pre-existing characters and concepts (Owen, Amon, and the research into the Warring Triad) to do something with them that they weren't doing originally, but couch it in the proper environment to make it look like they always were. Works pretty well.
I think a big thing to remember about research into tempering in particular was that there's a lot of time where that just wasn't a thing. There's no evidence of any primals between the Fourth Calamity and the roughly-present-day (it's unclear exactly when, but probably Titan), with the weird exception of Proto-Ozma, so reasonably there wouldn't have been a lot of research into this going on in the present, and what would be there wouldn't have been going on for long. I can easily believe that research into tempering had only reached a level of general understanding of the concept, rather than having made any headway into curing it. Especially since Allag had something huge the Alliance didn't: a test environment. They had captive primals that they could test their hypotheses around, while the Alliance only had insane brainwashed thralls after a giant monster turned up. -
09-08-2023, 02:02 PMBrightamethyst
That's another thing you have to keep in mind. The world basically did a near complete reset half a dozen times. For all we know someone DID find a cure for tempering in the past but the knowledge was lost (or erased by the Ascians) thousands of years and several calamities ago.
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09-08-2023, 06:30 PMUkcsAliasCould have been the reason why primal tempering in the first didnt exist even though there clearly was a primal alive. And since interactions between the first and source werent possible, that information could never have gotten out until the connection that allowed interactions was finaly made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
Its not something i worried about since even irl it can take a very long time to discover something, and then in just a matter of a few years we maange to use and optimize it to crazy degrees. Even just a little bit of knowledge can give a massive boost in progress. Especialy when things are important for survival, people are quick learners. -
09-08-2023, 07:19 PMClereticWas there a primal there...? I'm wracking my brain (and Triple Triad card collection) for any primals in the First, and I'm coming up blank outside of the Warrior of Light, who was hardly a regular or longstanding event.Quote:
Originally Posted by UkcsAlias
I saw a website once miscategorize Titania and Innocence as primals, I think that just came from them having a template for trial bosses that had to be updated; neither of them are.