Sharlayan Pacifism and Deus Ex Machina

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

That said, I feel like I recall Fourchenalt rebuking Alisaie and Alphinaud for exacerbating conflicts (which seemed to echo what I recall of Louisioux's Circle of Knowing being rebuked), though I can't recall whether he said this as an individual or whether his views represent those of the Forum. Presumably a bit of both, as he seems to be an influential member of the Forum, which would suggest that his personal views would likely align with those of the greater Forum? These sentiments were at the core of my interpretation of Sharlayan's values, and the reason I made this thread. Perhaps someone knowledgeable can correct me if I'm misunderstanding.

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It was not for exacerbating conflict, it was for meddling in other nations' politics since Sharlayan's isolationism extends to a non-interference clause. Louisioux's philosophy wasn't rebuked for conflict, either, but also for interference: using Sharlayan research and Sharlayan citizens for the benefit of the world at large. It's a major part of the Sharlayan side of EW, the morals of the Forum at present take the letter but not the spirit behind their founder's philosophy. After all, Nyunkrepf actively went out and gathered survivors from the flood, eventually settling in what became Sharlayan.

Louisioux believed in Nyunkrepf's deeds and that was at odds with the Forum's beliefs. Lou basically has a Spider-Man philosophy: Sharlayan has great power, and such has great responsibility to protect others with that power.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

It was not for exacerbating conflict, it was for meddling in other nations' politics since Sharlayan's isolationism extends to a non-interference clause. It's a major part of the Sharlayan side of EW, the morals of the Forum at present take the letter but not the spirit behind their founder's philosophy.

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Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for helping clear up my misconceptions!

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Sharlyean is like Radz-At Han. They're a neutral nation that is isolationist. Even an isolationist country would need to bring in any supplies that they wouldn't be able to make for themselves. That and we are talking about a country of scholars that loved to research the heck out of anything and everything. While slowly working on the escape in secret.

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Sharlayan and Radz-at-Han have interestingly different stances here.

Sharlayan is neutral and isolationist: they do the barest dealings with everyone else, but mostly make a deliberate effort of keeping themselves as far out of the affairs of others as possible. (Honestly, I suspect the aetheryte network was a relic of earlier policies and they wouldn't do it if they were making that decision during the game's pre-EW timeline.) They mostly succeed in holding these policies by being really hard to attack, as we've said before.

Radz-at-Han is neutral without being isolationist: they're openly dealing with all sides, and basically endeavor to make themselves too useful for anyone to knock them out. They mostly succeed by being powerful enough to stand up for themselves, while also being so helpful to everybody that they'll inevitably have allies if someone decides to pick a fight. Any war against Thavnair is gonna suck for whoever declared it against them, between the fact they're an island, the Radiant Host's martial strength, the inevitable cutoff of useful materials, and Thavnair's allies going against them.

Notably, we saw the shortcomings of both strategies in Endwalker: Sharlayan actually had relatively little support when they changed plans, their eventual success came down to the Scions and their one tangible ally, Thavnair. Meanwhile, Endwalker showed that as good as Thavnair had it in terms of international relations, it was a sitting duck against threats that came outside of that paradigm: the Telophoroi did a lot of damage and ruined their trade network by simply not caring about any of the political ramifications since they were declaring war against everyone anyway, and the End of Days showed that just a straight-up natural disaster will ruin anyone, and hit before anyone can extend aid.

Oh dear, where to begin.

Yes, Sharlayan is pacifist by nature. They are, in fact, so extremely pacifist that they have extended political leverage to attempt to get others to also be pacifists. They are explicitly not isolationist, because while they hardly ever grant other nations help, it's explicitly help with wars that they don't grant. It's right there, on the nose, stated outright by Fourchenault when he looks his only children dead in the eye and tells them that there is nothing that justifies war (really, this man looked his progeny, his "loved" ones in the eyes and told them that not them, not the future, nothing was worth fighting for).

When their colony existed it traded in and let scholars from other nations get educations there. It was there that they forged the aethereytes of Eorzea, which they then gave out to other countries. They were more than willing to partake in cultural exchange and neighbor other countries until the threat of war to their neighbors reared its head. And iirc they still sent diplomats to Garlemald to try and talk Garlemald out of war. They failed, of course.
But even nowadays they still have ships go in and out of their harbor.


It's also all true that they have assassins and create instruments for battle with the nouliths and their version of astrology, but these are things that only underscore the problems with Sharlayan in the story. Like a lot of other things, they had older sidequest lines when the entirety of how they'd appear in the story wasn't yet finalized. You'll notice that the MSQ never brings up said assassins really, though Sylvestre gets a cameo or two for AST mains to gawk at.

A bigger problem with the world building is Garlemald not investing in a serious navy. Apparently they have one, and enough present to be raided constantly by Limsa pirates and to construct Castrums in the water, but apparently they just don't make use of it or enhance it enough with Magitek to make it noteworthy. In spite of stretching shore to shore, and having naval presence of some degree in both the Far East and Eorzea, we're expected to believe they only make aerial dreadnaughts. Trust and believe, if you could make something as large as the Gration fly as high as Azys Lla, you could make something even larger sail through the water. And why wouldn't they, what with vast Ceruleum reserves being known of in The New World? Why would they make all refueling points for airships landlocked? With such strong airships, why wouldn't they want something like an aircraft carrier?

I mean, keep in mind that Sharlayan isn't even as far away from Limsa Lominsa as Kugane was in Stormblood. There's no talk of a Ceruleum engine being used to go there faster, and we go there on a boat from Limsa within a short span of time. Then look at the region map and realize it's less far away from the mainland than Doma was from the imperial capital. Which Alphinaud and Maxima were going to fly straight from Doma to Garlemald in a simple dropship like the ones we shoot down in Castrum Meridianum(or used to anyway idr how it is now).

So just like Eorzea, it's not that the Empire couldn't go to Sharlayan and take it rather easily. It's just that they don't. This has been an ever present plot contrivance for a long time. Eorzea only ever deals with one legion at a time as far as we know. There's still like 5 or 6 legions that are completely unaccounted for within the story, too.

That said, as has been stated, there's not a lot to conquer with regards to Sharlayan. Though Gleaners roaming all around the world should probably raise questions about what exactly the Sharlayans are doing/need with everything they collect and bring back. Their islands don't appear to have any sort of strategic value to Garlemald's interests. Their citizenry wouldn't even make for very much in the way of conscripts either, save for their mages who would likely die fighting rather than serve. Simple pirates would be easily repelled. Their pacifistic nature doesn't lend them to the Ascians' plans either since you can't spark mass chaos with pacifism (of course, it means they don't get in the way, either).

Do gotta wonder though, why weren't the Ascians keeping an eye on them after Louisoix showed what they're capable of and what kind of knowledge they have at Carteneau? The man almost stopped a Calamity in its tracks. That should be of great interest to our old antagonists.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

When their colony existed it traded in and let scholars from other nations get educations there. It was there that they forged the aethereytes of Eorzea, which they then gave out to other countries. They were more than willing to partake in cultural exchange and neighbor other countries until the threat of war to their neighbors reared its head. And iirc they still sent diplomats to Garlemald to try and talk Garlemald out of war. They failed, of course.
But even nowadays they still have ships go in and out of their harbor.

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When their colony existed, they were more open to outside dealings than they are right now. This was touched on in the AST questline – they at least partly abandoned their colony due to the work of a faction that were strongly against sharing Sharlayan knowledge with outsiders.

And it's totally necessary for them to still have ships coming in and out even if they have shut themselves off politically. They still need supplies they can't get locally, and the gleaners travel in and out on missions with cargo.

Throwing into this that Sharlayans also have a monopoly on the spells used by all three nations of the 5th Astral Era, you know, the ones that flooded the world. Chances are if anybody seriously invaded them they'd get magically batch slapped into the next decade. When you got that kind of edge, it's hard not to feel over confident in one's unassailability

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Yes, Sharlayan is pacifist by nature. They are, in fact, so extremely pacifist that they have extended political leverage to attempt to get others to also be pacifists. They are explicitly not isolationist, because while they hardly ever grant other nations help, it's explicitly help with wars that they don't grant. It's right there, on the nose, stated outright by Fourchenault when he looks his only children dead in the eye and tells them that there is nothing that justifies war (really, this man looked his progeny, his "loved" ones in the eyes and told them that not them, not the future, nothing was worth fighting for).

When their colony existed it traded in and let scholars from other nations get educations there. It was there that they forged the aethereytes of Eorzea, which they then gave out to other countries. They were more than willing to partake in cultural exchange and neighbor other countries until the threat of war to their neighbors reared its head. And iirc they still sent diplomats to Garlemald to try and talk Garlemald out of war. They failed, of course.
But even nowadays they still have ships go in and out of their harbor.

A bigger problem with the world building is Garlemald not investing in a serious navy. Apparently they have one, and enough present to be raided constantly by Limsa pirates and to construct Castrums in the water, but apparently they just don't make use of it or enhance it enough with Magitek to make it noteworthy. In spite of stretching shore to shore, and having naval presence of some degree in both the Far East and Eorzea, we're expected to believe they only make aerial dreadnaughts. Trust and believe, if you could make something as large as the Gration fly as high as Azys Lla, you could make something even larger sail through the water. And why wouldn't they, what with vast Ceruleum reserves being known of in The New World? Why would they make all refueling points for airships landlocked? With such strong airships, why wouldn't they want something like an aircraft carrier?

I mean, keep in mind that Sharlayan isn't even as far away from Limsa Lominsa as Kugane was in Stormblood. There's no talk of a Ceruleum engine being used to go there faster, and we go there on a boat from Limsa within a short span of time. Then look at the region map and realize it's less far away from the mainland than Doma was from the imperial capital. Which Alphinaud and Maxima were going to fly straight from Doma to Garlemald in a simple dropship like the ones we shoot down in Castrum Meridianum(or used to anyway idr how it is now).

So just like Eorzea, it's not that the Empire couldn't go to Sharlayan and take it rather easily. It's just that they don't. This has been an ever present plot contrivance for a long time. Eorzea only ever deals with one legion at a time as far as we know. There's still like 5 or 6 legions that are completely unaccounted for within the story, too.

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Thanks for weighing in, it's nice to know I wasn't gravely mistaken! Great points about the capabilities of Garlean travel as well.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

When their colony existed it traded in and let scholars from other nations get educations there. It was there that they forged the aethereytes of Eorzea, which they then gave out to other countries.

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While the Arkhitekton (aetheryte factory) in the colony made aetherytes, Sharlayan made the ones for the city-states after the calamity, at which point they had been out of the colony for a decade. They didn't give them out either, they sold them for extremely high prices. Other isolationist countries such as the historical United States still sold goods to other countries and allowed them to enroll in their universities.

You can be isolationist without being a hermit/pariah country. That would be isolationism in it's completely purest form, but the usual definition includes pacifism as a part of overall not interfering in the politics of other states by not taking part in wars or even military alliances. I would consider Sharlayan isolationist.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

While the Arkhitekton (aetheryte factory) in the colony made aetherytes, Sharlayan made the ones for the city-states after the calamity, at which point they had been out of the colony for a decade. They didn't give them out either, they sold them for extremely high prices. Other isolationist countries such as the historical United States still sold goods to other countries and allowed them to enroll in their universities.

You can be isolationist without being a hermit/pariah country. That would be isolationism in it's completely purest form, but the usual definition includes pacifism as a part of overall not interfering in the politics of other states by not taking part in wars or even military alliances. I would consider Sharlayan isolationist.

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That's nice and all, but it doesn't exempt them from being pacifists nor does it address all the points where they aren't isolationist. You can think whatever you'd like, but Fourchenault dead ass shows up and disowns his children and says that pacifism is a staple in Sharlayan's way of life. It is the reason for their non-interventionist policies. They believe war is wrong no matter what.

The difference between your wikipedia page paraphrasing, this, and the USA's policies in real life are that the US sought to avoid entangling themselves with other countries to avoid wars because wars are costly, not because the US thinks war is wrong. And the USA wasn't even consistent on it throughout history waffling back and forth depending on who was in control of the country at the time.

Then look to their actions in Endwalker after the Final Days are confirmed. If they were isolationist, they wouldn't give a damn about Radz-at-han nor anywhere else, and yet they send out envoys again to collect people to try and escort them to the moon or Sharlayan one way or the other. Starting first with a nation that their nation has close ties with, making Sharlayan more exactly non-interventionist pacifists.

Obviously they are conditional pacifists, as they do believe in self-defense, and they do believe in intervening to keep control over their secrets and magicks.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

That's nice and all, but it doesn't exempt them from being pacifists nor does it address all the points where they aren't isolationist.

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I never said they're not pacifist because they certainly are, and I included it in my definition of isolationism.

There's about 10 countries in this world and only 3 aren't at war with the gigantic land-eating empire so it makes sense to me that the 3 very weak, neutral ones would keep tabs on each other and be friendly. Even then, Sharlayan doesn't have an embassy or even regular ambassadors with the other two. Of those, Radz-at-Han isn't a closed country and they have their own academic institutions and similar attitude towards science and lack of historical military aggression so it would make sense that the two are generally close with each other and that Sharlayan would offer to take them to the moon to leave over say Gridania.

Hingashi is much more self-isolated than Sharlayan but would you not consider them isolationist just because they have 1 open city to do trade and have embassies? They probably do more trade than Sharlayan since Sharlayan's only source of income seems to be maintaining the aethernet.

Sharlayan did join the other Eorzean city-states during their time maintaining a colony, but as soon as the going got tough, they packed up and left the settlement completely (minus one angry witch) instead of simply maintaining neutrality. Combined with their general attitude towards the rest of Eorzea, it feels to me much more like isolationism instead of just simple non-intervention.


Also, I'm not sure what's bad about using Wikipedia unless you're going to engage in intellectual snobbery. I did look at that, but if you're going to be weird about it I also looked at Britannica and Collins since I go by "trust, but verify", and the first mentioned the historical US policies in their definitions, which I brought up not to talk about definitions of peace, but to show that self-described isolationists still trade and had foreign students. I'm not sure what the tangent was for.