Honestly, when it was added in SB, back then (when I was thinking this, it would have been late HW timeframe, keep that in mind, BEFORE RDM/SAM were added with the then-upcoming Stormblood expansion) I thought that RDM could have been a healer Job. WHM already used cure magics (typical WHM spells in most FF games) along with Stone/Aero, so I remembered thinking it could be like WHM just with less advanced heals (Cure 3, Medica 2) and instead slightly more potent damage spells with Fire/Thunder and maybe Blizzard to give it some MP management game there, along with possibly a 1-2-3 melee combo for something like MP regen or conservation attacks when MP was low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegor
If you take HW WHM and replace Stone and Aero with Fire and Thunder, and gave it a melee attack, you'd basically be dealing with a RDM.
I still kinda want Vermedica to this day, lol
-
07-18-2023, 01:36 PMRenathras
-
07-18-2023, 02:12 PMvetch
Aye Square, give us healer RDM specs and support DPS Astrologian specs. Shake it up a bit, hahah.
-
07-18-2023, 02:50 PMSilver-StriderI guess WHM would get a Geomancer DPS spec.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
-
07-18-2023, 02:57 PMHeroman3003If we go the lore way, it will be AST who gets it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
-
07-18-2023, 03:55 PMForsakenRoeInteresting to see how differently our minds work. I thought it'd be a tank, due to having Phalanx in 11, and the idea of 'it uses magic and melee, but is not amazing at either' lends well to a tank. My thinking would have been something akin to Continuation is now, where you'd alternate through 2 different 123 combos, and after each step, your Continuation button would cycle to a different element, to weave in a magic strike with some effect or another. You wouldn't be able to just smash it after every GCD though, cos of MP costs, so you'd have to ration out whether to refresh DOT, or reapply an En spell, or do burst damage cos Trick is upQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Also, my main experience of RDMs at that time was FFTA, and they have the ability to wear armor up to as heavy as chainmail there. I'm pretty sure they could use more than just robes in other games like FF5, too. Maybe I just like the idea of doing things unexpected a bit too much when it comes to importing jobs here. Like Necromancer (which became Reaper), I'd hoped for it to be a healer, not because I main healer, but because if it were a minion-based caster like 90% of other media has it, that'd be kinda boring to me. Coming out of nowhere with 'what if we used the manipulation of life energies, but in a restorative way instead of destructive' would set it apart from the rest. Similarly, for RDM, I assume most saw it as being a DPS, but I saw it fitting better as a tank. BLU's the one that is different for me (and therefore same for everyone else), because it has a previously established aspect of 'get hit by enemy for an effect' I would have done it as a tank. It's easier to justify it having weird effects for stuff like party %mits, a long CD party heal, etc, if it's a tank. Shake it off is, over it's full duration (this is assuming allied WAR using it on my WHM's HP bar), about 400p of shielding, plus 300 of healing, plus 500 of HOT, on a 90s CD.
I expect if Geomancer comes out, it's a DPS, but I'd prefer it as a tank cos earth barriers. I expect if Time Mage comes out, it'd be as a DPS, this one I can see going either way, DPS or Healer. I can see Beastmaster only as a DPS, and if it's limited I'll laugh, cos I'm not massive on BST, but it'll just be sad for those who wanted to play it and do current content with it. Ideally though, I'd rather they focus as much as possible on doing 'unique jobs'. GNB and RPR are both pretty cool designs. SGE, despite using the name (and being a bit shaky in gameplay for some) at least 'looks' cool with the gundam sounds and lasers. Better than Broil 4 at least. So rather than going 'we have made GEO, it is a DPS that uses the elements we stole from WHM', I'd rather have something unique to the game. 'Inspired by' is fine, ie GNB is 'inspired by FF8'
damn I got very tangential
Yeh this is what I don't really get about GEO, they already wrote the lore in such a way to say it's basically a subsection of Astromancy. I don't see why we need to have a class based on 'it uses the same theoretical applications, but uses a different power source'. They'd have to rewrite the AST lore, AGAIN, to make it work, unless they already took it out during the 'culling of the Cards'. But if they did it back then, people would have noticed by now, and pointed it out saying THIS PROVES GEO like it's the SM64 fountain thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Heroman3003
I want something that will be surprising and hype generating. Everyone thinks it's GEO, so if GEO is announced, yes it'll generate some hype, but a lot of people will go 'yep, called it' and not be surprised. If there was something like, idk, a rework to BLU so that it can do current content as well as still keeping access to all it's current fun BS, then that'd be very surprising, and also hype would be through the roof (being as BLU is such a fan favorite from older games). Plus if we're going to New World next expansion, narratively it'd just be a no-brainer
Oh well, doesn't matter to me most likely, since I don't play DPS all that much -
07-18-2023, 04:32 PMRenathras
It is and isn't like AST.
AST channels the aether of other stars, GEO the aether of this one (the planet). The issue is that it uses CNJ spells in gameplay, leading to the confusion, as CNJs also channel the aether of this planet, they just do it through an intermediary of the Elementals.
They wouldn't really have to rewrite AST lore at all. They'd just need to point out that CNJs are actually GEOs through a filter/intermediary. Which would mean that AST and CNJ are related disciplines as well...though that isn't really too outrageous and doesn't change either's existing lore, it's just a twist on how to think about it.
.
I COULD see Time Mage as a healer (reversing wounds, etc), but I can't imagine they'd make it one, given Time Mage has always been a damage/buffer in past games where it has existed. Though I think it also has had the Regen spell in some games, too...but in FFXIV, WHM already does, so unless they plan on WHM changes to Medica 2 and Regen, I can't really see it happening, and FFXIV is allergic to hybrids, hence the RDM situation.
I'd be fine with this. I just think they need to unify the "shared class" Jobs if they did more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
That is, SCH and SMN have this wild disconnect now with SMN being the easiest DPS Job but SCH being one of the more technical healers. Prior to EW, and especially prior to ShB, at least they kind of went together as "for people who want galaxy brain Jobs". If they tied GEO to CNJ, it should be more straightforward like WHM so more like SMN or maybe RDM in rotation style.
I can't imagine they will EVER do another Job that branches from a class again. They already have spent the better part of a decade complaining about doing that with SCH/SMN, even though I've never seen anything bad about it, personally. -
07-19-2023, 10:19 AMASkellingtonMmmm no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Geomancer as stated in the AST quests use the fault lines like constellations in the ground to mirror the stars in the heavens that AST use.
The LITERAL REASON AST has Earthly Star is based on that.
I don't think this invalidates having GEO. What does to me personally is CNJ exists, WHM up until SHB had GEO like spells, just return them back to WHM we don't need a whole 'nother class.
Same with Time Mage. AST HAD time magic can still GET time magic. There's no need for it.
I'm not against either being introduced into the game other than you pretty much ripped away what people like of the original classes (pre-Shb WHM and AST) to make way for new ones. -
07-19-2023, 01:34 PMRisvertasashi
Does "ex healer" after near a decade of it count for the purposes of this thread?
If it does, then, there's a few things I like:
1. More buttons yes, but
2. I can pretty well ignore the rest of the party. In raids I'm still often the one that can point out who made a mistake and exactly what they did wrong, though. (But I also usually keep silent unless it's asked for or their failures are otherwise disruptive - criticisms often aren't that welcome). Not that I didn't enjoy healing in it's way, but it's also kind of chill to have so much less to worry about. I'm just in the world of my own rotation.
3. I get treated better. Like, please don't get me wrong, I'm not going to throw a tantrum about not getting loot as quickly as others. But it's also nice to not have groups go from "Our healer doesn't know their rotation" when they've hard prioritized DPS and then be shocked at the drastic increase in DPS when gear finally does come my way, or have a tank try to blame me after they take 5x their health from a failed mechanic, other nonsense like that.
I guess I could TL;DR it as "It affects me less when people do dumbs".
The mobility is nice too. Healers are kinda like old style BLM. Modern BLM hoofs it much less than modern healers do, and then pretty much every other DPS job is much better than that.
Then, lastly, I often play a DPS job that can res. So I'm still impactful at letting the party recover from mistakes, which was a big part of what I liked about playing healers anyways. Spreadsheet-planning healchecks is kinda meh to me.
I'd still return to heal-maining in a heartbeat, though, if healers were primarily about healing. -
07-19-2023, 04:07 PMRenathrasI'm going to have to check the cutscenes again, but I'd like the exact quotes, if you can provide them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
GEO "mirroring the constellations" is still channeling the power of the earth/this planet/Star. Unless the quote says they are not?
CNJs do as well, they just do so by a proxy.
WHM is a bit odd, as it...does and doesn't. It works partly like BLM where it uses ambient aether (not from the planet, per se, but from everything around and just general floating/free aether), and partly by using aether granted by the Elementals. CNJs, unlike THMs, do not do their spellwork with their personal aether (which is why Sylphie was doing it wrong), they do more like BLM/WHMs do, but only via the Elementals.
.
The issue with "don't need a whole 'nother class" is that GEO would be a DPS, not a Healer. At least, that's how everyone imagines it. It's not simply some people want Stone spells. They want Stone spells...as a DPS Job.
AST was never a Time Mage. It was a FFXIV original (sorta, you can debatably argue it was a guest character in FFTactics, but it was really nothing like him, either) with a few spells that modified durations of other spells and it had Gravity (debatably Demi, but not Comet or Meteor). Also didn't have a Haste, Slow, or Stop spell, the staples of a Time Mage (and no, Time Mages don't do it through Arcanum), Reflect, or Regen (also sometimes associated with Time Magic).
The fight against Gaia (the first one) in Eden is more a Time Mage than AST ever was.
EDIT:
Yeah, it's weird how MOBILE that BLM is, despite people insisting otherwise. It's more mobile than any of the Healers aside from maybe SGE, and also than RDM, the caster/melee hybrid, is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
I also am with you on the Raising. I cannot stand playing DPS if I can't Raise. SMN/RDM only for me. Obviously no Tanks can raise, so there I go PLD since I feel I can do more to protect and keep the party alive than any of the others (WAR is pretty up there, too, though).
Also with ya that I wish there was more focus on healing. -
07-19-2023, 05:23 PMSaberMaxwell
One thing I do agree with you on, Renathras, is that Red Mage should probably have been a healer. In FFXIV healers are as close to "jack of all trades" as it can get outside of perhaps, Warrior who is a Queen of All Trades. So that idea of RDM being a tank was neat too.
The issue is, with it being a dps and being slung in with a Spellblade fantasy, you have different people coming in wanting different things from it. Of particular annoyance to me, no offense to anyone in particular, are people who play Red Mage for the fantasy of scraping people off the floor, as if there isn't a whole role dedicated to keeping people off the floor entirely. Though many would accuse me of the opposite when I say verraise should be limited or deleted (as if its not hyper hampered already in optimal Red Mage play, but thats neither here nor there) and tell me that Black Mage is over there and, well, fair enough but that highlights my point. Neither the strawman I erected in lieu of an example nor myself are wrong for liking RDM or wanting it to be more toward a healer/support or a dps, but we're all stuck in the same gray noncommittal sludge that the job is right now.