Even the localization team can't tell the difference between Scholar and Sage

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

It's 4 ppl on the Job Design team. And the playtester for Healers was replaced during EW Dev because the Dev who was the Healer playtester was deemed to have gotten "too good" with healing so they swapped them out for someone new to playtest healers

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I kinda wonder, was this for everything or just for normal content?

I think they talked about this in reference to 4 man dungeons, right? That's the origin of that comment? It kind of makes sense in that context since all 4 mans are "MSQ difficulty", which is SUPPOSED (sorta) to be idiotproof.

I don't think they meant for Ultimates and stuff.

They also said something similar for P5-8S when they said their team was able to clear the Enrages but had too much time to play/get good at it so it ended up being overtuned.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I kinda wonder, was this for everything or just for normal content?

I think they talked about this in reference to 4 man dungeons, right? That's the origin of that comment? It kind of makes sense in that context since all 4 mans are "MSQ difficulty", which is SUPPOSED (sorta) to be idiotproof.

I don't think they meant for Ultimates and stuff.

They also said something similar for P5-8S when they said their team was able to clear the Enrages but had too much time to play/get good at it so it ended up being overtuned.

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Yes but it's still concerning they moved a Dev off who was familiar with the role considering the dearth of Devs who even want to spend anytime trying to fix said role. As they have admitted that as a Dev team they aren't really all that interested in the role the way they are with the other two roles.

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

Yes but it's still concerning they moved a Dev off who was familiar with the role considering the dearth of Devs who even want to spend anytime trying to fix said role. As they have admitted that as a Dev team they aren't really all that interested in the role the way they are with the other two roles.

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Right right, but I'm not sure that's Job design or encounter design. I think that was their TESTING team, not their DESIGN team.

And if it WAS only for 4 mans - which...was the case, yes? - not Savages or Ultimates or the like, than it's not really relevant since it's for the content we all recognize (may not all LIKE, but all recognize) is always going to be made for everyone in the game to clear, it shouldn't be relevant.

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There are too many cases where people take an anecdote or quote and use it as a cudgel across the entire game. In some cases, that has validity ("Go play Ultimate", to a point), but in other cases, it does not (removed their 4 man dungeon Healer test player because he got "too good" falls into that). Again, P5-8S had the OPPOSITE problem (their testers got too good and WEREN'T removed), and that seemed to cause far more damage to the game and among the playerbase.

I think this is one of those things that shouldn't get the cudgel treatment, since the actual context and facts indicate it's being misused as one.

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

It's 4 ppl on the Job Design team. And the playtester for Healers was replaced during EW Dev because the Dev who was the Healer playtester was deemed to have gotten "too good" with healing so they swapped them out for someone new to playtest healers

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Wanna know what's even more depressing? The reason why the Healer was deemed "too good" with healing was because they started clearing Shadowbringer Extremes on content. Lmao.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Right right, but I'm not sure that's Job design or encounter design. I think that was their TESTING team, not their DESIGN team.

And if it WAS only for 4 mans - which...was the case, yes? - not Savages or Ultimates or the like, than it's not really relevant since it's for the content we all recognize (may not all LIKE, but all recognize) is always going to be made for everyone in the game to clear, it shouldn't be relevant.

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There are too many cases where people take an anecdote or quote and use it as a cudgel across the entire game. In some cases, that has validity ("Go play Ultimate", to a point), but in other cases, it does not (removed their 4 man dungeon Healer test player because he got "too good" falls into that). Again, P5-8S had the OPPOSITE problem (their testers got too good and WEREN'T removed), and that seemed to cause far more damage to the game and among the playerbase.

I think this is one of those things that shouldn't get the cudgel treatment, since the actual context and facts indicate it's being misused as one.

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My point is they removed someone on their testing team that had an aptitude for it, to actually improve their play. And given how disinterested the Dev team at large is towards the Healer role, them being moved for the reasons that they were was boneheaded. Because you know what might help them solve balancing healer gameplay between newcomers and vets? If they actually had two Healer testers, one established and one brand new.

I do find it funny and sad that their test for 'is the dungeon balance good' had a team which had a not so strong healer player, which is fine, they need to test that it's not too stressful for people with disabilities etc. Makes sense to me. They removed this player because they 'got too good' after doing on-content SHB extreme trials. Okay, maybe this means they learned how to react to damage within one GCD, which is 'too good' for their testing, whatever I don't claim to understand. What I definitely don't understand though, is that they also apparently have, on DPS, an absolute gigachad pumper of a BLM who may or may not be the P/D. Okay, so surely the fact that there is such an amazing player, whether it's Yoshi himself or some other 'really good DPS player', skews the results of their testing too? After all, said player would be dodging everything, pushing fat damage to end fights sooner, etc, all thereby reducing the 'stress' piled on the healer? If they wanted to test that the dungeon balance is good for basically anyone to be able to clear it, shouldn't they have FOUR 'very weak' players, ie, the level of the new healer player they brought in, but on all four roles?

Seems to me there's a double standard going on, and it's just because of the thinking that 'oh if the healer eats dirt, then the whole party is doomed because there goes the Res-Bot'. Which is doubly ironic, because this expansion more than any other allows parties to completely forgo the Healer role and just bring another DPS for those EX dungeons, and still be fine

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I do find it funny and sad that their test for 'is the dungeon balance good' had a team which had a not so strong healer player, which is fine, they need to test that it's not too stressful for people with disabilities etc. Makes sense to me. They removed this player because they 'got too good' after doing on-content SHB extreme trials. Okay, maybe this means they learned how to react to damage within one GCD, which is 'too good' for their testing, whatever I don't claim to understand. What I definitely don't understand though, is that they also apparently have, on DPS, an absolute gigachad pumper of a BLM who may or may not be the P/D. Okay, so surely the fact that there is such an amazing player, whether it's Yoshi himself or some other 'really good DPS player', skews the results of their testing too? After all, said player would be dodging everything, pushing fat damage to end fights sooner, etc, all thereby reducing the 'stress' piled on the healer? If they wanted to test that the dungeon balance is good for basically anyone to be able to clear it, shouldn't they have FOUR 'very weak' players, ie, the level of the new healer player they brought in, but on all four roles?

Seems to me there's a double standard going on, and it's just because of the thinking that 'oh if the healer eats dirt, then the whole party is doomed because there goes the Res-Bot'. Which is doubly ironic, because this expansion more than any other allows parties to completely forgo the Healer role and just bring another DPS for those EX dungeons, and still be fine

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I'm going to pull this quote out because it still stands:

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

- Why not take the information you're getting from the healer?
- If you want to test it from a casual side why have a serious DPS as well and not replace them?
- If the serious DPS doesn't matter, why should the midcore Healer?
- Why not have a full casual set, a full midcore set and a full serious set?
- No seriously, why not?

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Again, they have a SERIOUS DPS player who goes up to savage. What was the purpose of replacing the healer then?

The only conclusion I have (because we don't have 3 sets of testers from casual, mid, and hardcore) is that they know healing isn't in a great spot and they don't want to fix it and they can get away with it.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Again, they have a SERIOUS DPS player who goes up to savage. What was the purpose of replacing the healer then?

The only conclusion I have (because we don't have 3 sets of testers from casual, mid, and hardcore) is that they know healing isn't in a great spot and they don't want to fix it and they can get away with it.

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The reason why they felt the need to replace the healer and not the DPS is because they are testing for clear-ability, not necessarily engagement. They're trying to ensure trash pack damage and boss damage is manageable to heal through for a below average skill level, and that's all they're really looking for. How well the content actually tests the kits they've created, and how much interaction any given player actually has is not something they're interested in testing for. That's why it doesn't particularly matter what skill level the DPS is, because there's no need to test for whether or not a below average group can meet any DPS requirements because there are no DPS requirements.

Right but the point is not 'can the savage-clearing DPS clear the DPS requirements', it is 'the savage-clearing DPS will have game sense enough to not stand in every AOE'. For example, in Aldazaal, the turret boss. A regular DPS might stand in one of the side cannon AOEs, or overlap one of the spread markers later in the fight with someone else accidentally. But by having someone that competent, and good at recognising mechanics and how to successfully resolve them, they are reducing the stress of the healer's job to the point where it could be considered a skewed result. If anything, they should just do the test on each role, with trusts filling the rest of the slots, to create a baseline. Essentially, they're running their 'tests' without a control group

The savage clearing DPS is also making the pulls a shit ton shorter, which has a very tangible effect on both the tank and healer player. I usually only run expert with two other friends these days, one on healer most of the time and the other on a ranged dps, and as the tank I can tell you it is *extremely* noticably different when we have a sweaty ultra try hard, a mediocre player, or someone that is Very Bad at pushing buttons (in aoe, somehow, which only has like 3~5???) and/or horribly undergeared as the second dps.