What would prevent 0/1 Healer clears of content?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I think this approach focuses on a particular tree and misses the forest. All of (1) - (6) are about healers wanting to feel relevant and wanting to have fun. The zero healer clear of TOP is, my two cents, a gut punch that highlights how not relevant a healer can be in content across the board. As I myself put it:



And in that framing, it's not actually necessary to guarantee a wipe if the party tries to go on without a healer. It's enough that the party simply not leave the healer for dead. Which, given that this is MSQ-level content I'm talking about, I bet it'd be enough to implement some sort of in-combat Phoenix Down, because I bet most parties, if they had the choice, would rather have the healer alive than dead.

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If you are looking at the specific scenario of a healer lying dead and the party potentially wiping as a result, at least one other game provides some options that allows the healer to use some decision making. For example in one game that I played the healer could buff themselves with a self-raise so that if they died within a dungeon, they would resurrect. If a healer died and the CD had expired they could cast it again and carry on. It wouldn't help of course if the healer keeps dying as the skill is on CD in that case.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I think this approach focuses on a particular tree and misses the forest. All of (1) - (6) are about healers wanting to feel relevant and wanting to have fun. The zero healer clear of TOP is, my two cents, a gut punch that highlights how not relevant a healer can be in content across the board.

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That is exactly it. How would you think DPS would feel if healers and tanks could run content just as fast without DPS characters? The forums would light on fire.

More DMG during fights; Raid wide Damage over time - force healers to heal more often, take constant dmg.
Remove all selfheal from TANK/DPS
Remove ress abilties from non-healers.


Prob solved.

• Decrease the amount of healing tools if you aren't going to make us use them.
  
• Increase outgoing damage frequency. I should not be able to use the same tool every time a raidwide or TB is up. I should be cycling through them and I'm not.
  
• Increase recast timer for abilities healer and non. Second Wind is a good example of a non-healer healing tool on an appropriate CD. I would even argue Vercure is with its mana cost. But other tools from Tank/Dps need to be adjusted (looking at you WAR) and healer tools... well there is a reason why I constantly bring up the 60s timer on my abilities.
  
• Allow autos from bosses to crit and either decrease TB wind ups or allow autos to go through them.
  
• Allow bosses to hit the party randomly with an attack. And NO, stacks/puddles do not count. I'm talking about a single target attack on a random party member that ISN'T the tank or OT, or if we're feeling spicy two players at a time.
  
• More mechanics for the OT to handle and take damage from so they aren't standing there acting like a blue dps. This is going back to point one but, I have two charges of ED and CI and you aren't going to make me use them?

For dungeons, the above is still applicable (aside from the OT bit), but FFS make trash actually threatening. Its not like you don't know how SE.

Again, allow them to target party members and ignore tank aggro (see Amaurot).

I don't think Esuna is engaging what so ever but more Esuna-able debuffs wouldn't be unwelcome, just don't make them a worthless DoT we can HoT over or Doom. Silence and Pacify exist, use them. (see Deep Dungeons) And give us other ones to work with.

The first and foremost step should be to ramp up damage on the tanks whilst also tuning their self healing downwards somewhat.

Go right the way back to Coil Turn 1, the earliest example of a no healers run I can find referenced was in April 2015, not far off a full 2 years after BCoB's release and after FCoB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ztYeiDr3A

Even with the gear disparity, Caduceus still packed a fair punch towards the end of the fight. With that sort of damage coming in throughout a modern fight you're not going to be able to reliably survive it without unrestricted healing as it's just too spiky to deal with consistently.

IMHO course correcting tank damage should even take priority over any adjustments to raid wides. Remember when Regen used to be worth maintaining on tanks in Savage/Coil? Now it's barely worth the GCD outside of specific windows like P4S Pinax.

To make healers needed it would require them to have value. I would propose a combination of values on healing and damage.

First, add more damage buttons and damage on healers but have it be required by taking it into account (increasing boss hp, difficulty, and adding new gimmicks continously through said fights). For example as a new fight gimmick, you could have a boss fight reduce damage taken by a select role while having a certain role or roles shine during a phase. What roles you break up could also totally remove the two minute meta as where roles would shine would only be where they are not being reduced. An example of class break it up is: ranged, magic, melee, healers, tanks.

Although that leads to the question when to use an individual buff...guess you'll just have to do some hard thinking on that one. If someone isn't contributing it will be obvious.

Second, add more healing, add more conditions to esuna (continuously), and new healing gimmicks during fights. A new healing gimmick for example that would force healers to be there would be heal thresholds that lock party members away unless they are healed to double their total hp, and have it as a constant threshold on dps, we can call it zombification for lack of a better name. (It is only an example). It will act as doom does where the individual will die if it is not resolved, however in addition to when they die it will place a cooldown on when they can be ressurected (which places an even bigger risk on enrage, if it's high content)...Vindictus has something like this during raids where if a person dies continuously a cooldown is placed on their body and you cannot ressurect that person until it resolves.

And uh yeah, the issues that are posted are usually only taken at a job level, and yes the healer jobs need fixing, but also, the fights also need fixing and thus both need to be addressed at the same time imo. And the easiest way to do so is by implementing new mechanics, continuous conditions, and skills to makeup or introduce new value.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The first and foremost step should be to ramp up damage on the tanks whilst also tuning their self healing downwards somewhat.

Go right the way back to Coil Turn 1, the earliest example of a no healers run I can find referenced was in April 2015, not far off a full 2 years after BCoB's release and after FCoB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ztYeiDr3A

Even with the gear disparity, Caduceus still packed a fair punch towards the end of the fight. With that sort of damage coming in throughout a modern fight you're not going to be able to reliably survive it without unrestricted healing as it's just too spiky to deal with consistently.

IMHO course correcting tank damage should even take priority over any adjustments to raid wides. Remember when Regen used to be worth maintaining on tanks in Savage/Coil? Now it's barely worth the GCD outside of specific windows like P4S Pinax.

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exactly this. THe concept of keeping your regens rolling on tanks does not exist in this game. That alone is a missed opportunity, let alone the fact that most fights require zero casts of the spell. My two cents is that the only way to fix this mess is if SEnix nerfs OGCD healing and party healing/mitigation tools.

Sadly, the only way I see their stance on healing changing is if Warcraft logs lets you parse with 1 heal and PF swaps to a 1 heal meta. That would be the only way I see the devs taking the healing concerns seriously.

I’m not sure you can prevent 1 healer clears, just due to the variance in player skill. If it’s made impossible for even the best (beyond employing gimmicks- Halicarnassus role towers or whatever) then the decidedly sub par won’t have nearly as easy time even with the standard composition.

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I’m not sure you can prevent 1 healer clears, just due to the variance in player skill.

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There is a way and that is making healers a dps that have high heal output (which is what we are now ironically in terms of our skill engagement (we barely heal)). Then extending that dps section in terms of skills and utility to get more players wanting to play the role.

The end result is you might as well bring a healer anyways cause you aren't losing out on damage. Although the I just wanna heal healers, would never agree to this because the game would have them touch their dps skills cause their dps would now be factored in. (Like it isn't already? But this would be the excuse.)

We aren’t now, it’s about 50-60% of a dps output or generally a bit less than a tank. If the gap was significantly smaller, excluding dps would suddenly start to become if not optimal then comfier.