Do encounteres FEEL different now?

I think it's a weird issue with making the mechanics more "complicated". They keep narrowing the solution for mechanics (think Rubi EX circles). But the problem here is, the narrower the possible solution, the more predictable they have to make it. If the room is going to be blasted except for this one tiny chessboard square, you also need to make the solution recognizable fast enough that players can solve it in time. So you design your mechanics in such a way they have easy shortcuts to their solutions, and you end up with mechanics that *look* spectacular and barf a lot of information at you, but in the end it has 3 variations so you just stand here here or here.

The bosses will have a massive hitbox and teleport to the center of the arena after a big attack and you WILL like it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I think it's a weird issue with making the mechanics more "complicated". They keep narrowing the solution for mechanics (think Rubi EX circles). But the problem here is, the narrower the possible solution, the more predictable they have to make it. If the room is going to be blasted except for this one tiny chessboard square, you also need to make the solution recognizable fast enough that players can solve it in time. So you design your mechanics in such a way they have easy shortcuts to their solutions, and you end up with mechanics that *look* spectacular and barf a lot of information at you, but in the end it has 3 variations so you just stand here here or here.

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Something I miss having are more examples of what I’ll refer to as “chaotic mechanics.” Where there are a lot of small, simple things happening all at once, but you can afford to get clipped and are expected to get clipped, and the party much more frequently has to tank manageable chip damage rather than massive bursts of damage followed by absolutely no damage at all. Think Moggle Mog extreme as the purest example of this, but not everything needs to be that of course. But another example is how A4S feels. That fight has issues, but I like the constant, random targeted AoEs during laser diffusion, and people constantly having to pop orbs. Constant, manageable chip damage that isn’t hard to heal, just makes things feel busy.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Something I miss having are more examples of what I’ll refer to as “chaotic mechanics.” Where there are a lot of small, simple things happening all at once, but you can afford to get clipped and are expected to get clipped, and the party much more frequently has to tank manageable chip damage rather than massive bursts of damage followed by absolutely no damage at all. Think Moggle Mog extreme as the purest example of this, but not everything needs to be that of course. But another example is how A4S feels. That fight has issues, but I like the constant, random targeted AoEs during laser diffusion, and people constantly having to pop orbs. Constant, manageable chip damage that isn’t hard to heal, just makes things feel busy.

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So basically, what you're saying is 'do more fight design like Barb EX and less like Rubi EX'

I think both heavy puzzle fight and intense fight have their win and cons. And 'm pretty sure some people would enjoy one and not the other. As for me i like both, also because i usually love to try to solve puzzle by my own instead of sheeping a dorito.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

So basically, what you're saying is 'do more fight design like Barb EX and less like Rubi EX'

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It might depend on the person, but I think it would be more "Do more fights like Ravana Ex or Susano Ex and less like Rubi Ex OR Barb Ex".

Someone brought this up in the General Discussion one that BarbEx was more of a Savage fight, not an Extreme, which is probably why Savage players like it, but that makes it bad design for Extremes.

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Originally Posted by Sparkthor

I think both heavy puzzle fight and intense fight have their win and cons. And 'm pretty sure some people would enjoy one and not the other. As for me i like both, also because i usually love to try to solve puzzle by my own instead of sheeping a dorito.

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I think this is what older fights did better.

The telegraphs and mechanics were somewhat more noticeable and obvious, and the fights were slower paced allowing players to take in what was going on and determine the solutions themselves. Higher paced fights where taking avoidable damage either kills you outright or kills you quickly (if you take two hits back to back or while you still have the Vuln stack) robs players of that agency. The end result is everyone either watches a guide made by people who have high performing Statics and throw themselves at the content for hours to figure it out (much like how they approach Savages and Ultimates...) or for the fights that allow it, follow the Dorito around.

In older fight designs, if you weren't in the right spot, it didn't mean a death sentence, and more forgiving mechanics with more obvious telegraphs meant that players often COULD figure them out on their own without needing a Static or guide, which is a far better system for encounters that aren't meant to be done by organized groups and that allow individuals to go in blind and piece together the fights on their own while not dragging down the party.

It's really depend of the fight, but positionning and killing the party for few mistakes happened in some ARR ex.
- Titan Ex can easily throw you outside the arena which exclude you from the fight.
- Ifrit Ex healer flamme aoe can kill everyone, same as add to kill no to quick because vuln stack but not to slow because timer.

I would also say what guide is something pretty new : people went to spend less time in ex and went for guides very early. Also because guide came out more quickly and are spreading among the community. So I'm not sure is more due to design fight than just the community growing.

Lastly, i wonder if Ex fight were trully forgiving back in time : Garuda, Titan and Ifrit Ex are trials with ilvl 65 to 70. Entering in even with ilvl 110 mean having nearly twice as much HP than required, which really lower the overall difficulty in survivability, and also in DPS checks.

I really think on this topic, it's really hard to be objective because we are comparing recent fight with fight we've done more than 5 years ago in context.

It was also nice to have fights where the optimal place to stand wasn’t everyone head deep in the boss’ colon except for the main tank. I liked Ramuh EX where the party had to stay apart, there was a designated spot to stand to dispel charm, and the bard would stay out in the water to bait charms and run back in for lightning attacks. Diamond Weapon was also pretty cool in that regard, but every savage fight lately is just, find the butthole and stay there. P2S was kinda cool, but everyone huddles together still.

I have mixed feelings about them.

I loved the old extreme's and how they had these big phase changes and the music would change and you would get that "aw shit here we go!" kind of feeling.....but at the same time I hated the long interruptions messing up my rotation. I also sometimes miss the old raids and I dislike the arena style setups where you can't really tell the difference between a savage fight or a trial fight anymore because they are both just single boss instances. Then again at the same time I absolutely love just dropping right in with no trash fights, no long walks back to the boss after each wipe etc.... So ya, mixed bag of feelings lol.

I'll have to look in the other thread about the reasoning behind BarbEx = savage, because that is not the feeling I get from it at all. Barb feels fun because it feels like a fight and not a test (even thought it is still totally a test) due to the rapid fire mechanics, at least on brawler mode. Modern savage fights don't really have that (or maybe they do post door boss, my static aint that good haha).