Guardian

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

It's not about doing damage to them, it's about being able to stop nonsense like this which you could if you did 1 direct damage to the covered perso.

Losing 0.01% damage means nothing and makes 0 difference, being able to stop a full pot is way more important then that.

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if PLD had adequate sustain,DR and dps i would agree hell id even go further to make guardian 80-90% but that it isnt the case, PLD recieves 2x the damage for someone to heal at full, so if youre doing 30k-40k damage thats transferred to a class that outside of Guard does not have the resources to survive along with the damage PLD receives thats the trade-off one life for another, and adding another flaw/drawback to guardian doesn't seem fair and would make the class nonviable, also ive seen enough times someone die with smallest of hp due to DOTs under guardian to say every DPS matters

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Originally Posted by Bluish

Thank you for explaining so well,

Eh I'm one of those who like to learn as they go and even though I tried most of the jobs on dummies, the implications of this skill went complately over my head and I'm also reconsidering my ability to figure out wth is going on altogether. On the bright side my somewhat traumatic experience with learning about this payed off, else I would continue being one of those blissfully oblivious people XD Not that I expect a pld dropping guard on me anytime soon since I'm playing bard...and I don't have a knock back for them either...hmm

Also I'm not sure that even being strategic as a whole team and bringing pld down or alternatively their team members would tip the scales that much...you will take that hard won kill just to deal with it again in some 10-20 seconds when they come back at you fresh as daisies and with lb at the ready. I would like to know if people overall have much luck going against teams focused on using guardian/elixir strategy.

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if BRD is what your playing then i dont really have any advice, if you managed to kill PLD or another team member not under guardian, how does that not tip the scales?

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Originally Posted by Bluish

you will take that hard won kill just to deal with it again in some 10-20 seconds when they come back at you fresh as daisies and with lb at the ready

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this applies to every class/player you kill

It's very situational and I'm talking about teams made out of people who win trade, cheat, communicate or all 3... I would not have an issue with seeing it occasionally but when it happens a lot, one kill would never help much, it would have to be 2-3 to tip that scale. One kill to lower their number and another to make up for one of the enemies whole hp restoration, but that still barely tips it in my view.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The disadvantage to pld while using guardian, which is available every 25s, can be mitigated by guard which is available every 30s, allowing pld to cover half of the time they are taking damage and preventing interruptions?

Well if that doesn't sound hopeless it's enough to consider them having a healer in their group and the blessing of other members buffs and skills...

They really should remove Guardian and replace it with some version of Intervention. You still get a PLD flavor without the bitter after taste of getting double damage.

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Originally Posted by Bluish

It's very situational and I'm talking about teams made out of people who win trade, cheat, communicate or all 3... I would not have an issue with seeing it occasionally but when it happens a lot, one kill would never help much, it would have to be 2-3 to tip that scale. One kill to lower their number and another to make up for one of the enemies whole hp restoration, but that still barely tips it in my view.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The disadvantage to pld while using guardian, which is available every 25s, can be mitigated by guard which is available every 30s, allowing pld to cover half of the time they are taking damage and preventing interruptions?

Well if that doesn't sound hopeless it's enough to consider them having a healer in their group and the blessing of other members buffs and skills...

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In terms of win trading then no amount of advice is going help aside from playing in primal DC

This disadvantages with guard + cover(guardian) for the player/PLD as well as the team are this, it disengages PLD from combat even though PLD does little to no Damage its still a reduction of overall team dps, which means with that time you and your team should easily be able to kill another then refocus on PLD since it's guard is on CD which leads to the other disadvantage of PLD rarely getting to use guard for itself

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

They really should remove Guardian and replace it with some version of Intervention. You still get a PLD flavor without the bitter after taste of getting double damage.

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Unfortunately guard and it's LB are the only reason anyone would tolerate the class in a mode that's all about dps if they get rid of guardian then they'd have to buff PLD which would lead to a slew of complaints

I think it's a solid move for PLD to have but it never bothered me a lot. Saving somebody from being obliterated is powerful, but it also comes at certain costs. Executing Guardian on a target without using cover is tantamount to suicide. Executing Guardian on a target and use cover (to enable them to emergency elixir, etc) is potent, but it also spends the Guard on the PLD, which becomes a sitting target once it's faded off. If the PLD is smart, they'll plan ahead and backpedal, but the fact remains they still used their guard for it, which is quite a cost for a tank imo. If the PLD has already burned purify, they're suddenly a potential prime target for crowd control and a kill. Guardian can also throw the PLD into a very dangerous position if the person they're trying to save is exposed right in the middle of the enemy party.

Obviously it's hard to punish or outright impossible if the PLD has full resources, and especially guard and purify ready. They'll probably not be punishable. But sometimes they don't, because they can't control when an ally will need saving.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Unfortunately guard and it's LB are the only reason anyone would tolerate the class in a mode that's all about dps if they get rid of guardian then they'd have to buff PLD which would lead to a slew of complaints

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PLD actually has respectable burst DPS with its ability to stack Sword Oath. Confiteor, Intervene, Shield Bash, Intervene, with the associated Atonements, can make life difficult for your chosen target, or rushing down and finishing a weakened enemy.

I can certainly attest to pld having full capacity to be hurtful when played aggressively and also hard to kill, at least from my perspective.

So the elixir/guardian combo wasn't even something I was aware of until recently which is why all these questions, but the most pressing one remaining is, how often does pld have full resources to do this? I have seen it done a few times per match so I wonder how many times can this be expected to happen.

I disagree with the cost to pld, if executed sucessfully on a weakened ally who would otherwise die, it spares pld and their team a lot of incoming trouble. It's even worse if the saved team member is of some sturdy job, melee for example, because once they are done using elixir they can come to their saviour's aid with some big guns available and all that, while their other team members might also help if they know what's going on. Truth is, the mechanic doesn't take long enough to execute. On the other side, team members have to notice what's happening first then loose a second or two to decision making, switching target, moving etc...and of course each team member has their own first thoughts on how to react so even if somebody slaps a marker on someone...it might be too late to take any advantage of the situation...

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

PLD actually has respectable burst DPS with its ability to stack Sword Oath. Confiteor, Intervene, Shield Bash, Intervene, with the associated Atonements, can make life difficult for your chosen target, or rushing down and finishing a weakened enemy.

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in a 1v1 scenario sure thats indeed true (even though it cant solo kill) but that can be said for pretty much any job all which have higher burst than PLD, in terms of CC or FL where the setup will rarely ever be a 1v1 PLD falls short in the contribution of the teams overall dps let alone the damage taken thats why its LB and guardian are highly coveted