Potential Solution to Job Balance?

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Originally Posted by RobinBobobbinGoblin

It's a stupid question sure, but I felt it was worth asking anyway. It wouldn't work in the current iteration of the game obviously, but maybe it's something to think about moving forward and they could balance around it. How? I'm not sure I'm not a game developer just someone giving their thoughts on the matter. You can also do a split between Just Melee and Ranged DPS. MCH and BLM being near the top in their respective category and SAM and maybe MNK at the top in theirs with Bard and DNC near the bottom in theirs. As far as I'm aware that's what most people bring in parties 2 melee and 2 ranged. Casters in essence are still ranged. That would invite other discussions like should they have raise or not and other things but, that's is the rabbit hole I'm suggesting discussion around.

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Ah. Thanks for the confirmation. You do have no clue.

Now you are proposing a hard comp with the highest DPS. I don't even know where to start explaining why this idea is awful.

The solution is simple. Design fun jobs first, then try to balance them, sure, but not into the ground. Perfect balance is unachievable. Don't cater to the people screaming the loudest about balance and inject some much needed fun/diversity back into the game. We tried it long enough. It's not worth the sacrifice.

The problem with support jobs in this game is it lacks any systems that support jobs can interact with or control.. they've stripped away nearly everything that did exist and any support that remains is basically a direct modifier of damage +/- x%.

if resources like tp still existed and were actually finite then supportive roles could be beneficial. a minor tweak to jobs where you could have lower power but higher cost combos and higher power but higher cost combos. making management more important. and a question of balancing those combos.. something akin to very early monk iterations where they could effectively do 2 true strikes to 1 twin snakes for increased damage but at increased tp cost. whcih could see them tp starved without support from a goad or bards paeon..

then you could have the final fantasy iconic elemental wheel assign monsters types elelments allow a support job to enchant those elements to dps that found they were resisted. a mob might be weak to blunt resist piercing, but succeptible to wind. so while a monk could punch a way happily without support a drg could benefit from an elemental enchantment.

i'm not going to write a book but there's literally hundreds if not thousands of things they could do just looking at past games in the final fantasy franchise,. but the issue is they've stripped everything away so much that all that matters is damage... it doesnt even matter where that damage comes from or how. just as long as its damage. whether its a blm a monk or a brd.. all that matters is damage and who brings most..

you cant have a deep and engaging combat system without deep and engaging systems to interact with.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The problem with support jobs in this game is it lacks any systems that support jobs can interact with or control.. they've stripped away nearly everything that did exist and any support that remains is basically a direct modifier of damage +/- x%.

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Aye, at which point it just becomes a matter of "Here, take my buffs, for which you sacrificed direct DPS in taking me instead of a "Damage" job, in order to carry my rDPS through your exploitation of said buffs. Oh, also, we're inherently more fragile now, because we're more dependent on the multiplicity of stacked buffs to be viable and any death means desync, causing us to underperform relative to a more independent (e.g., SAM/BLM/MCH/etc.) comp."

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

The solution is simple. Design fun jobs first, then try to balance them, sure, but not into the ground. Perfect balance is unachievable. Don't cater to the people screaming the loudest about balance and inject some much needed fun/diversity back into the game. We tried it long enough. It's not worth the sacrifice.

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Additionally, much of the balancing to be done without reduction-to-the-lowest-common-denominator can be done through encounter design, starting with undermechanical depth. Give us stagger and armor/part break; give us a Z-axis and flying enemies and Dragoons able to leap to said flying enemies. Give fights things worth Cover-ing to the benefit of uptime (be that for damage or securing a difficult heal-check). Create a place for snap aggro, to the benefit of NIN and/or, say, a more old-school Warrior. Etc., etc.

Finally, extend content scaling, granular difficulty levels, and perhaps offer small additions, while giving further incentive to find value on less meta jobs. Where a more defensive job would otherwise quickly lose value as people outgear the content of a small number of difficulty levels, that's not the case as the difficulty continues to scale onward. Similarly, a Warrior and Monk on a fight with a bunch of flying enemies would sound absurd... right up until the Warrior, say, takes up a glyph that allows Holmgang to grapple multiple enemies and reduces its CD if little damage is taken over its duration and the Monk pumps enough stagger out of Phantom Rush to crash the whole flock to the ground as it blitzes across each.

That shit would, to me at least, actually be quite fun. Simple? Gods no. But probably worthwhile nonetheless for a 7.0-onward course of redesign for decent strategic and playmaking depth with more distinctly kit-ed jobs. And that starts, as Dzian put it, with "deep and engaging systems to interact with."

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

the name 'support' is an issue. I think a diffirent category could be better here. Idealy one that doesnt relate towards support or buffing. But I know the term flex is quite popular in moba's, so maybe some sort of term like this works by simply making it sound more elite like (if it sounds cool, its more likely to be popular after all). Plain support however is unlikely to truly work as that just sounds like a healer.

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As for a name for the role, I'd pull from FFXIII and name it 'Synergist' As the name implies Synergy with the rest of the party.

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Originally Posted by XiroGear

As for a name for the role, I'd pull from FFXIII and name it 'Synergist' As the name implies Synergy with the rest of the party.

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I think Support is fine as a role name. I used to play DOTA so what I see as Support duties includes:

-Pulling the neutrals into the creep wave, to disrupt the meeting point of the creeps to get it closer to our tower (safer for our carry)
-Harassing the enemy offlaner to stop them getting XP
-Setting up kills on either the offlaner or rotating Mid to help Mid secure a kill on enemy Mid
-Setting up Wards to give vision to the allied team
-Stacking creep camps by pulling neutrals out of the camp at the minute mark, tricking the game into thinking the camp is 'cleared'. This allows for big fast farm for the carry when they're strong enough to kill stacked camps
-Warding ENEMY territory to give vision of where the enemy is
-Buying items that help support the team, such as CC items (Rod of Atos, Scythe of Vyse if you're rich, Aghanim's Scepter if it's got a good effect), and consumables such as Smoke of Deceit or Dust of Appearance to counter invis boys

And finally, yes, some of the supports do have skills that heal, like Omniknight or Oracle. But those heals are absolutely not the focus of being a support in that game. Apex Legends has a 'support' role, and only ONE of those supports can heal (Lifeline). Support means a lot more than just 'is the heal bitch' and anyone who plays Supports like they are 'the heal bitch' is not playing them to their full potential. What are you doing in League as a Support, standing in lane and not attacking the enemy? Leeching XP from your Carry?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I think Support is fine as a role name. I used to play DOTA so what I see as Support duties includes:

-Pulling the neutrals into the creep wave, to disrupt the meeting point of the creeps to get it closer to our tower (safer for our carry)
-Harassing the enemy offlaner to stop them getting XP
-Setting up kills on either the offlaner or rotating Mid to help Mid secure a kill on enemy Mid
-Setting up Wards to give vision to the allied team
-Stacking creep camps by pulling neutrals out of the camp at the minute mark, tricking the game into thinking the camp is 'cleared'. This allows for big fast farm for the carry when they're strong enough to kill stacked camps
-Warding ENEMY territory to give vision of where the enemy is
-Buying items that help support the team, such as CC items (Rod of Atos, Scythe of Vyse if you're rich, Aghanim's Scepter if it's got a good effect), and consumables such as Smoke of Deceit or Dust of Appearance to counter invis boys

And finally, yes, some of the supports do have skills that heal, like Omniknight or Oracle. But those heals are absolutely not the focus of being a support in that game. Apex Legends has a 'support' role, and only ONE of those supports can heal (Lifeline). Support means a lot more than just 'is the heal bitch' and anyone who plays Supports like they are 'the heal bitch' is not playing them to their full potential. What are you doing in League as a Support, standing in lane and not attacking the enemy? Leeching XP from your Carry?

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Alright so how would you translate that to FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by XiroGear

Alright so how would you translate that to FFXIV?

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Giving supports more to do and fights more to care about than just enrage -> clear time and the very rare oGCD heal saved briefly for a particular mechanic?

I don't think it'd come to anyone's surprise that XIV's lackluster healing is largely just a symptom of overall shallow encounter design, low meaningful content variety, and wonky tuning.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Giving supports more to do and fights more to care about than just enrage -> clear time and the very rare oGCD heal saved briefly for a particular mechanic?

I don't think it'd come to anyone's surprise that XIV's lackluster healing is largely just a symptom of overall shallow encounter design, low meaningful content variety, and wonky tuning.

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I won't argue with that. though while I would have no issues with seeing that, given how they've removed Support abilities from DPS and Healer Jobs, I'm not going to hold my breath for this...