Criterion Dungeons are great, but the entire system misses the mark.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

It's designed for exactly the people who don't want to do 8-man raids, but want something more difficult than what was currently offered.

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I keep hearing about these supposed people, but I've never seen or met any in-game in like 6 years of playing the game and teaching people how to raid. It must be an unbelievably niche group of people. People who are interested in a challenge will seek it out, whether its 8 man or 4 man.

I do however know a ton of casual players who were hoping for some midcore content that would prime them for Savage; Most of them couldn't get past the first boss of criterion and quit out of frustration.

We can argue all day whether it fulfilled the developers vision or not, but clearly that vision wasn't in line with what many people seemed to hope for.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I keep hearing about these supposed people, but I've never seen or met any in-game in like 6 years of playing the game and teaching people how to raid. It must be an unbelievably niche group of people. People who are interested in a challenge will seek it out, whether its 8 man or 4 man.

I do however know a ton of casual players who were hoping for some midcore content that would prime them for Savage; Most of them couldn't get past the first boss of criterion and quit out of frustration.

We can argue all day whether it fulfilled the developers vision or not, but clearly that vision wasn't in line with what many people seemed to hope for.

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One of those players right here. Being provided with a 4-man alternative with similar rewards would result in me walking away from 8-man content almost immediately. The nightmare that is gearing through PF is largely my only recourse at the moment, as I've not enough free time to dedicate to being part of a static. But grabbing three other people to hit up some challenging dungeons? Very doable even on a schedule as hectic as mine. Kinda pointless if they give lame or no rewards and require gear from the very content I'm wishing for an alternative to, though.

Unfortunately for myself and many others in this boat, SE does not seem to have any plans at this time to introduce the M+ analogue so many of us were hoping Criterion could be. It is instead just another challenge mode with rewards that offer no tangible benefit. Which, hey, that's fine for players that are into it, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want some kind of payout other than some cosmetics for completing the content.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I think the system hits the mark perfectly, just not the mark you personally wished it would hit. They've said from the beginning that Criterion dungeons are meant precisely for people who want more challenging 4-man content. The intention behind it was never to be a stepping-stone to 8-man raiding. It's designed for exactly the people who don't want to do 8-man raids, but want something more difficult than what was currently offered.

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Only thing I can offer here is, due to the way rewards are structured in the game as a whole, one practically needs to run the 8 man raids to be ready for Criterion. In a lot of ways, Criterion fits a similar niche to Ultimate, especially the savage variant of it where it becomes an endurance gauntlet that is balanced around BiS.

In the spirit of that, it will be probably a little while yet before people avoiding or uninterested in 8 man raids can really start going to town on this content, though I don't doubt Criterion NM is doable without it.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I keep hearing about these supposed people, but I've never seen or met any in-game in like 6 years of playing the game and teaching people how to raid. It must be an unbelievably niche group of people. People who are interested in a challenge will seek it out, whether its 8 man or 4 man.

I do however know a ton of casual players who were hoping for some midcore content that would prime them for Savage; Most of them couldn't get past the first boss of criterion and quit out of frustration.

We can argue all day whether it fulfilled the developers vision or not, but clearly that vision wasn't in line with what many people seemed to hope for.

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At this point, Savage Floors 1-3 are the midcore to prepare a player for the soft-hardcore of Floor 4 and the true hardcore of Current Ultimate. If there's a stepping stone to Savage 1-3, it'd be Current EX. Beyond that though, and especially due to each fight being a unique beast, it's difficult to design a "truly midcore experience," and I personally never expected Criterion Dungeon to be that. I'm mildly surprised Criterion NM is the beast that it is, but my understanding of what the content was is close to what it IS nonetheless.

IMO, the only thing that can prepare you for Savage is Savage; the real difficulty of the content being "getting a group together of like skill and goals."

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Everybody thought it would be like Extreme because Savage was above it. I think they would've actually used the term if they meant it to be that kind of jump in difficulty.

I think they left armor out for a couple of reasons. This is something new they're trying and they didn't want to accidentally pull people out of the savage tier to farm this instead. If they let you trade tokens for something like savage books, they would most likely lock down the content for weekly clears.

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I don't see how adding 620 or even 625 gear to Criterion Dungeons would be that much of an issue. It would never replace savage as long as it doesn't reward 630 gear with perfect substats, worst case you would maybe use a ring from it on tanks and healers.

It would just be another option to gear alt jobs to a reasonable level or even main jobs for people who don't do savage in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I don't see how adding 620 or even 625 gear to Criterion Dungeons would be that much of an issue. It would never replace savage as long as it doesn't reward 630 gear with perfect substats, worst case you would maybe use a ring from it on tanks and healers.

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The easiest thing to do would be to have it drop upgrade materials for the tome gear. That way there's no need to design new equipment and the content suddenly has actual meaning. Maybe throw in something down the line for the relic weapons in there, presumably about the time they overtake the raid weapons and become BiS.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I don't see how adding 620 or even 625 gear to Criterion Dungeons would be that much of an issue. It would never replace savage as long as it doesn't reward 630 gear with perfect substats, worst case you would maybe use a ring from it on tanks and healers.

It would just be another option to gear alt jobs to a reasonable level or even main jobs for people who don't do savage in the first place.

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620 already exists on the tome vendor. We don't need more redundant sets of gear like that. When 6.3 hits, we'll have the crafted upgrade to that level and easier upgrades for the tome gear.

All they had to do to make mid-core content was remove the telegraphs of most the boss moves and give less reaction time. We all know what the colors on the barrels mean after a run of Variant. We should all know what the various colors of the mouse boss mean after one run. Add a color to the mouse and the barrels (just for example) and remove the telegraph and subtract 1-2 seconds from the cast time. Bam - midcore. You have to know what each mechanic is with less handholding, but a little more wiggle room than savage content.

I think variant hit the mark for "something new and different." Criterion should have just scaled to group size with less room for error and they'd have midcore content unique to the game.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

620 already exists on the tome vendor. We don't need more redundant sets of gear like that. When 6.3 hits, we'll have the crafted upgrade to that level and easier upgrades for the tome gear.

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Except tome gear is not "another option to gear alt jobs" it is the same restricted currency gear it has always been and 1 of the only 2 options.

If I wanted to gear a healer right now I would need 3315 (or 2820 depending on either a high piety or low piety set) tomestones and that is with access to savage gear reducing the tomestone items I need down to 7 (or 6) from 10 which requires another 7-8 weekly resets.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

620 already exists on the tome vendor. We don't need more redundant sets of gear like that. When 6.3 hits, we'll have the crafted upgrade to that level and easier upgrades for the tome gear.

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The new crafted gear in 6.3 will be for DoH/DoL. The next crafted DoW/DoM sets won't be until 6.4.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Except tome gear is not "another option to gear alt jobs" it is the same restricted currency gear it has always been and 1 of the only 2 options.

If I wanted to gear a healer right now I would need 3315 (or 2820 depending on either a high piety or low piety set) tomestones and that is with access to savage gear reducing the tomestone items I need down to 7 (or 6) from 10 which requires another 7-8 weekly resets.

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Alt jobs aren't intended to be geared in BiS, nor do they need to be. Don't forget that SE considers Alliance raids the main way to gear alt jobs (why we had that Need/Greed drama back in Stormblood). When Myths of the Realm returns in 6.3, the new gear will be ilvl 620.

If someone can clear Savage with their main job in 610 gear, they can clear as a healer in 610 gear as well. That's not hard to get between Normal Abyssos and crafted.

A lot of content creators have pointed out the real problem when it comes to healers in PF - party leaders are setting the ilvl requirements too high. Players don't need to be able to get gear faster. They need to use better sense when recruiting for their parties.

Criterion begs the question: who is this content designed for?

Why is the "middle difficulty" version so hard? It's tuned for Savage gear, with both Selkie and Zombie being harder than 4/5 of the current savage bosses, dissuading casual players from participating.

Why does it not drop weekly 620/625 gear or twines/glazes? This would give it purpose as a way to gear up extra jobs - or even an alternative path of gearing to those who only want to play with a small group of friends and not a full static. The rewards are insanely lacking (and almost insulting) and do not incentivize clearing more than once. All the savage raiders I know, including myself, have cleared at least the "middle difficulty" and don't have any reason to go back in. Criterion is effectively dead content the second you clear.

The casuals don't want to do it because it's too hard for them. The savage raiders don't want to do it because there is no point to. It is great content, but they need to seriously reconsider the reward structure and the absolutely insane difficulty curve.